Annealing? Or thinking about it. Check this out... (Video)

[Danattherock]

My newfound interest in reloading 50 BMG has me convinced to anneal. Also, recently loading 5-6x fired 223 Lapua cases with 77 SMK molys, I noticed varying seating pressure and it was confirmed with erratic numbers on the chrono. Neck tension is all over the place. To make matters worse, accuracy fell off what had been a 1/4-1/2" gun. A Barnes Precision AR-15 with 20" Krieger I had recently shot a 0.172" group with.

Anyway, said all that to say this. Ask me two months ago about annealing, and I would have said no way. It was up there with neck turning, two tasks I was trying to avoid. But now, after personal experience and lots of reading, I'm about to dive in. I've been torn between jerry rigging a cordless drill and a $500-600 Giraud or Bench-source annealing machine.


video of Anneal-Rite...

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/Home_Page.php


Dan

 

[jonbearman]

My opinion is for what he is selling a drill a socket adaptor and a socket would do the job just as good. And you may have everything already.

 

[DataSmith]

A long time fellow shooter once commented to me that when it came to loading, there was an almost endless number of things that you could do that might make a difference in your accuracy. Each of these things had a number of degrees to which it could be done from just OK to OCD level detail.

He went on to say that of all of these things, practice made more difference in his shooting than anything else. So he approached any changes he made to his loading as time/money he couldn't spend shooting and then decided how much better it would make him in that light.

He was a self proclaimed old coot but he had a good point. Annealing is one of those things I have resisted but there may come a time in the very near future where it's going to be something I more or less have to do. When I do, I really don't want to go overboard and get one of those really expensive rotary turn table gizmos.

That said, the main problem I see with some of the home grown rigs I've seen is that they are a bit too casual in their setup - little better than a pan of water and a torch. This one (the one in the video) actually looks a bit casual but it seems to be fairly well thought out.

If you do go for it, I'd be interested in hearing your review.

 

[Danattherock]

Will do, as I'm buying one. Talked with the guy that makes them today checking that the caliber specific bars I need are in stock, which they are. Will be getting 223, 6.5 CM, 300 Wby, and 50 BMG. I have no doubt annealing can be done, and very well, using a drill. Spoke with a former FCSA 50 BMG world champion the other day about this.

I just like the simplicity and ease of setup with the Anneal-Rite. Rotating cases in a drill using one torch is doable. But having a simple revolving bar on an axle, in a fixed position, with two heat sources appeals to me. For one, I'm staring at the case, watching for color, while its stationary.

For whatever the reason, that sounds easier to me than a revolving case. Also, I don't have to hold the torch with this method. Just a hand on the wood ball handle with axle that turns immediately when I see what I'm looking for with regards to color at the shoulder and neck.

Lastly, I will be using the exact same technique and equipment irregardless of caliber. Just change bars and go, nothing changes. With a jerry rigged drill, I would need various shell holders, bolts that the head fits primer pockets, flat washers, or sockets, all of which are employed in drill annealing. If only annealing one caliber, I would just go with the drill method.


Dan

 

[ChristCross]

My newfound interest in reloading 50 BMG has me convinced to anneal. Also, recently loading 5-6x fired 223 Lapua cases with 77 SMK molys, I noticed varying seating pressure and it was confirmed with erratic numbers on the chrono. Neck tension is all over the place. To make matters worse, accuracy fell off what had been a 1/4-1/2" gun. A Barnes Precision AR-15 with 20" Krieger I had recently shot a 0.172" group with.

Anyway, said all that to say this. Ask me two months ago about annealing, and I would have said no way. It was up there with neck turning, two tasks I was trying to avoid. But now, after personal experience and lots of reading, I'm about to dive in. I've been torn between jerry rigging a cordless drill and a $500-600 Giraud or Bench-source annealing machine.



video of Anneal-Rite...

http://www.cartridgeanneal.com/Home_Page.php


Dan

Just buy the Giraud or Bench-source annealing machine and save your time.I have one on the way.I dont want to sit thier and do it one at time.

 

[Danattherock]

The Anneal-Rite actually appears much faster to me. Keep in mind in his demo video he is going slow and narrating the video. While speed will be cartridge specific to a degree, this setup looks incredibly fast, having two heat source helps. I would guess a 223 case could be annealed every 4-5 seconds on the Anneal-Rite. Just watched an automated Giraud and counted 11 seconds between cases.

But I see what you mean about the set it and forget it mindset. It's true that you could be doing other things in the garage or reloading room while the Giraud or Bench-Source did their thing. But I don't think it would take long at all to anneal 100-150 cases with either method, so I'm not overly concerned with time. I'm more concerned with the quality of the annealing. The former world champion I spoke to uses a cordless drill for a reason. His gun and set up is likely $20,000.

There are some potential short comings to annealing every case for the same exact amount of time. Some 6-8 different alloys are used when brass is manufactured as I undestand it. Their composition is not identical, even with brass from same lot.

Yet with nice automated machines, which I think are quite nice indeed, you are assuming all the brass needs exactly the same amount of heat to anneal properly. By doing the cases individually you can anneal more precisely as you are controlling visually what amount of annealing is being performed. They all get the hairy eyeball, rather than the same treatment irregardless of composition, grain structure, whatever you might call it.

Also, setup is tedious I hear with autimated machines. Not a big deal if annealing one caliber. But when changing from 223 to 50 BMG, it's a different story. To my way of thinking, this Anneal-Rite is offering affordability, precise control over the annealing process itself, and ease of setup for annealing various cartridges.


Dan

 

[CatShooter]

[...]
There are some potential short comings to annealing every case for the same exact amount of time. Some 6-8 different alloys are used when brass is manufactured as I understand it. Their composition is not identical, even with brass from same lot.

Yet with nice automated machines, which I think are quite nice indeed, you are assuming all the brass needs exactly the same amount of heat to anneal properly. By doing the cases individually you can anneal more precisely as you are controlling visually what amount of annealing is being performed. They all get the hairy eyeball, rather than the same treatment irregardless of composition, grain structure, whatever you might call it. [...]


Dan

Dan... what are you going to do, do a chemical analysis on each piece and re-adjust the time you anneal it?

Annealing is NOT brain surgery - it is one of the easiest chores in precision case prep. I have been annealing for over 40 years - my son did it for me when he was 8 years old.

You guys can make frying an egg into a research project needing "... hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment." ( so said someone about annealing on a different website).

 

[Danattherock]

;D

I'm just saying I can anneal each case the same way if I decide how long it stays in the hot seat, rather than a machine that treats all cases the same. Same method anyone using a drill would use, annealing till the color they want is achieved.

Rotating block of aluminum with a caliber specific hole in each end? That's as simple as it gets. But I get the humor, and truth, in your egg frying joke. Often true.


Dan

 

[37Lincoln1]

Dan,

What color are you watching for?

This should start another merry go round. . .

 

[Joe R]

jonbearman said:
My opinion is for what he is selling a drill a socket adaptor and a socket would do the job just as good. And you may have everything already.

This ...

CatShooter said:
Annealing is NOT brain surgery - it is one of the easiest chores in precision case prep.

and this one too.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[CatShooter]

Dan,

What color are you watching for?

This should start another merry go round. . .

You need to watch for a magenta/fuchsia blend for the main colour, with a tings of aged blueberry, but not Maine blueberries, it MUST be North Western New York State blueberries, from the great lakes region. If the blue looks like the Maine blueberry, the whole batch of cases are ruined and need to be crushed to save humanity from such inept efforts.

There... happy now

You CANNOT determine the state of anneal from colour - the above cases were the same make, annealed at the same time, by propane from the same well... and they look completely different - the necks are the same hardness.

But I had to destroy them, cuz they had a tinge of Pennsylvania blueberry - and EVERYBODY knows that is very badd!!!

 

[LHSmith]

Huckleberries grow in Pennsyltucky. Blueberries are grown elsewhere where the soil is less fertile.

 

[CatShooter]

Huckleberries grow in Pennsyltucky. Blueberries are grown elsewhere where the soil is less fertile.

I lived in Dingman's Ferry, south of Milford.. and we had tons blueberries.

 

[Danattherock]

Dan,

What color are you watching for?

This should start another merry go round. . .

A gold ring during the heating process. Will likely ruin a few cases till I see it for myself. But had two former world champions tell me the same thing. I will take that over Internet banter. I've read all sorts of things, dull red, cherry red, etc. One of the guys I spoke with wrote a very detailed magazine article about preparing match brass, which included a pic of the gold ring, and the colors it changes in to. This info could be 50 BMG specific, not sure. All my reading on annealing has been as it relates to this cartridge.


I've read enough old threads here and elsewhere to know how varied the opinions are. Referred back to a good article on annealing and found this...

"While annealing, I turn off the lights except for a small one off to my left which I keep shielded from my eyes. I have a glove on my left hand and I control the torch with my right hand. You want the blue tip of the flame to just touch the neck of the case as it turns. I keep the flame up pretty high. With 6.5-284 AI cases, it takes about six to seven seconds. Watch for the neck to "jussst" start to turn maroon in shade. In other words, watch for the very onset of the neck changing to red. (You'll catch on with a little practice.)"

From...

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html



Dan

 

[LHSmith]

Huckleberries grow in Pennsyltucky. Blueberries are grown elsewhere where the soil is less fertile.

I lived in Dingman's Ferry, south of Milford.. and we had tons blueberries.

Yeah, proof you weren't a native, you were an import.

OP- Either method, machine or manually with torch, will take practice....so have lots of old brass (cleaned) handy. When annealed manually, some cases never changed color and you have a tendency to hold it in the flame longer. Just can't beat a machine for consistency.

 

[Greyfox]

Been a while since I read it, but there is a story in the Old Testament( I think in the book of Kings, may be Judges). It's about a couple of kings consulting two prophets before a battle. First is a false prophet who is willing to tell them whatever they want to hear. He tells them that it will be a glorious victory for them. The other is a prophet of The Eternal who is consulted second. Seems his name Micaiah. Anyway, when asked he says in effect "sure go for it, of course you'll win". Then the king who had requested him commanded him to tell the truth. And, of course he prophesied a bitter defeat, which happened.

So, I'll say what he said.....the first time. Go for it. Of course you can eyeball every piece of brass and give it just the right temperature for exactly the right and equal amount of time. What was I thinking when I bought a Ken Light and was able to anneal each piece of brass exactly the same temp & time. And then again when I sold it and bought a Giraud because it did the same thing, but faster and more efficient with more and easier adjustments for time & temp. All I really needed was a socket, a torch and a good eye........... What the hell was I thinking?????? :

I think I'll just do my next chamber job with a drill motor and a rusty bit............

Rick

 

[Joe R]

Catshooter,
I am LMAO. That was a good piece of creative writing. Your old English teacher is smiling down on you today.

Joe

 

[CatShooter]

I lived in Dingman's Ferry, south of Milford.. and we had tons blueberries.

Yeah, proof you weren't a native, you were an import.

Now, that's dumb...

 

[dedogs]

LHSmith, Both Huckleberries and Blueberries grow in "Pennsyltucky" They fall into either the Vaccinium species or the Gaylussica species depending on variety. Common names mean doodley-squat. dedogs

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Just buy the Giraud or Bench-source annealing machine and save your time.I have one on the way.I dont want to sit thier and do it one at time.

Was going to get the Giraud because of its large hopper capacity, but it takes longer to change out wheels and stops when changing cartridges with varying lengths. Still have to watch it in case it messes up. Read a lot of reviews where cartridges jammed in the wheel and burned the motor up. But that was usually with short varmint rounds like the 221 fireball. Still a flawed design in my eyes though.

So I opted for the Bench Source. The same wheel does any cartridge except 50 cal. Making adjustments for varying case body thicknesses is a breeze. Adjusting the dual torch heads is very simple. If you do get a 50 BMG wheel, it takes less than a minute to swap it out. It's a wonderful piece of precision engineering that will leave you smiling and wondering why you didn't have one all along?