Annealing Machine Advise
- Thread starter welldone
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Here is a thread on my annealing process with 2 videos.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736674.0.html
I'm working on turning this into an automatic machine that I hope to be able to sell in the spring.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736674.0.html
I'm working on turning this into an automatic machine that I hope to be able to sell in the spring.
One thing I've noticed with all the annealing videos I've seen here - none of them drop the heated cases into water to quench. My understanding is that, unless brass is quenched after heating, you haven't softened it. Annealing steel requires that it be allowed to cool very slowly after heating, but brass has to be quenched in order for it to be softened. The NRA Reloading Handbook recommends that cases be stood up in something like a cakepan with water about midway up the body, heated, then tipped over to quench the neck/shoulder area.
Is the quenching sequence omitted from the videos to simplify, or is it just overlooked?
Is the quenching sequence omitted from the videos to simplify, or is it just overlooked?
SongdogHunter
Gold $$ Contributor
Flatlander thats how i have always done it. since iam too cheap to spring for Ken Lights machine.
SDH
SDH
Brass does not require quenching. It makes no difference if you cool slowly or quickly.
If I understand the metallurgy behind brass annealing correctly, quenching is not actually required to soften the brass. The heat that does that for you. It is true that steel must cool slowly, else it will become brittle. Brass does not become brittle with quenching so quenching is a convenient method of rapidly cooling the case without reversing the annealing process. Brass is a very good heat conductor, so quenching serves to keep the heat from transferring to, and annealing, the case head. The function of the water in the cake pan is to insulate the case head from the heat being applied to the neck/shoulder. You are only looking to anneal the neck/shoulder. Under no circumstances do you want the case head to be annealed because softening the case head could lead to catastrophic results.
Archerross: Non-carbon-bearing steel does not harden through heating to transformation and quenching. Only steels containing significant carbon amounts will behave this way.
Brittle is also a loaded word. The fracture toughness exhibited by steel is related to crystalline structure obtained during heat treatment. Some alloy steels can become quite hard while still remaining fracture-resistant.
Brittle is also a loaded word. The fracture toughness exhibited by steel is related to crystalline structure obtained during heat treatment. Some alloy steels can become quite hard while still remaining fracture-resistant.
sleepygator said:
obviously properties vary from steel to steel, but with regard to the processing of any given steel (really any base metal or alloy, brass included), its unavoidable that hardness and fracture toughness are inversely related.
I would like to start annealing as well, but it seems to me that producing consistent results is more of an art than science for anyone that doesn't have a hardness tester. I would think that using an induction coil would be significantly easier and more elegant than mounted torches, however costly...
MSnations: Not necessarily true. If carbon alloy steels are raised to transformation and then quenched, mostly yes. If they are austempered and a fine, bainite structure formed, no, the relationship is not linear.
This also does not account for so-called super alloy steels like maraging and precipitation-hardening alloys that are not quenched. Both can obtain high material conditions while maintaining excellent fracture toughness. Work-hardened materials like cartridge brass (70/30) do tend to become quite brittle as material condition increases.
Annealing is not an art and does not require a hardness tester. Since we are only trying to anneal, an accurate temperature sensor would be more helpful.
The problem I see with induction annealing is the same as encountered in any production induction heating. The coils tend to overheat quickly and are usually water cooled. Water cooling adds significantly to the cost and complexity. Ken Light's machine, when properly employed, is consistent and cost effective, despite the recurring gas cost.
This also does not account for so-called super alloy steels like maraging and precipitation-hardening alloys that are not quenched. Both can obtain high material conditions while maintaining excellent fracture toughness. Work-hardened materials like cartridge brass (70/30) do tend to become quite brittle as material condition increases.
Annealing is not an art and does not require a hardness tester. Since we are only trying to anneal, an accurate temperature sensor would be more helpful.
The problem I see with induction annealing is the same as encountered in any production induction heating. The coils tend to overheat quickly and are usually water cooled. Water cooling adds significantly to the cost and complexity. Ken Light's machine, when properly employed, is consistent and cost effective, despite the recurring gas cost.
perhaps I should have said 'phase' instead of 'steel'. comparing different alloy phases is just as unfair as comparing different alloy compositions. I never claimed there is a linear relationship, even considering a single phase a linear ductility-tensile strength relationship would be bizarre.
during aging precipitation hardened alloys may gain a disproportional amount of tensile strength to their ductility loss, but they do lose ductility...no way around it.
I'll have to reconsider torch heat for annealing. I'm more interested in system reliability as I'm in the process of automating my whole production process (commercial scale).
during aging precipitation hardened alloys may gain a disproportional amount of tensile strength to their ductility loss, but they do lose ductility...no way around it.
I'll have to reconsider torch heat for annealing. I'm more interested in system reliability as I'm in the process of automating my whole production process (commercial scale).
I should've done more research before posting my reply on quenching. In light of the information I've read here, Ken Light's machine looks like an excellent way to anneal. I think my next step will be call Ken to get his recommendation for appropriate propane torch tips & plumbing so I can hook them both up to a 10lb. propane tank. I don't care for the expense of buying disposable butane bottles, and not knowing whether they'll run empty in the middle of an annealing session. Besides, I can re-fill a 10lb. tank out of the 1000gal. LP tank that runs the furnace & water heater here at home.
I have one of the prominent annealing machines, which works so-so, I doubt that the other brand is much better. The big draw back, is the torches. The torches have to be in perfect alignment, perfectly spaced, perfect height and the flame must be just right. Now that the torches are lined up, you need to adjust your timer so that each piece is under flame the perfect amount of time. This all requires several pieces of obsolete brass, which you can now throw away.
I've been watching the videos of this induction process and it looks really promising. I'd like to see this coil mounted over a single stage press, which will eliminate any alignment issues and keep my clumsy hands out of it. The other thing I'm seeing is that the coil is so hot, that there isn't any grace period. It looks like the instant that the brass hits optimum temperature, it has to come out immediately, one more second and the brass is over done.
And if someone could come up with an accurate way of testing brass to insure that it is done correctly, and eliminate the uncertanity. What we are doing now requires visual observation. I'm told that a large portion of the male population has issues seeing color to one degree or another. I've tried Tempilaq and the temp. sensitive crayons, both were disappointing.
I've been watching the videos of this induction process and it looks really promising. I'd like to see this coil mounted over a single stage press, which will eliminate any alignment issues and keep my clumsy hands out of it. The other thing I'm seeing is that the coil is so hot, that there isn't any grace period. It looks like the instant that the brass hits optimum temperature, it has to come out immediately, one more second and the brass is over done.
And if someone could come up with an accurate way of testing brass to insure that it is done correctly, and eliminate the uncertanity. What we are doing now requires visual observation. I'm told that a large portion of the male population has issues seeing color to one degree or another. I've tried Tempilaq and the temp. sensitive crayons, both were disappointing.
JR: Ken's machine has no timer, the wheel rotates continuously at a constant speed. The correct approach is to start with the flame high on the case and intensity set low. As your test pieces move through the flames, the flames can be adjusted in height and intensity to achieve the desired result. By approaching from a neck-first, low-heat direction, no brass is ruined. The same pieces can be used many times for setup. I have only ruined one case with my BC1000 and that was the day I received it.
As for induction coils; they can also work well with a simple timer that regulates the duration. You still have a setup issue. Take your pick.
It helps either way if the brass is very shiny so that the color change is obvious. A little Nevr-dull works for me.
As for induction coils; they can also work well with a simple timer that regulates the duration. You still have a setup issue. Take your pick.
It helps either way if the brass is very shiny so that the color change is obvious. A little Nevr-dull works for me.
Sleepygator: There's no question that Ken Lights machine is the reigning champion as far as I know. I'll only say that I anneal a wide variety of cartridges and that I need more flexibility changing from one to another.
Gunamonth: You're really on the right track. I think that this devise will produce a very consistent and uniform result, ultimately producing brass that will have a very consistent neck tension. If your not going to manufacture and market your devise then show it to someone who will.
Gunamonth: You're really on the right track. I think that this devise will produce a very consistent and uniform result, ultimately producing brass that will have a very consistent neck tension. If your not going to manufacture and market your devise then show it to someone who will.
Inductoheat has a large number of technical articles dealing with all aspects of induction heating; hardening, annealing, coil design, cooling, failures, etc. A study of selected articles should answer most of your induction questions.
Induction is an excellent production heating methodology. On the scale of interest here, it is not the least expensive route. There is, however, no question that it will work well. That is proven in industry every day.
Induction is an excellent production heating methodology. On the scale of interest here, it is not the least expensive route. There is, however, no question that it will work well. That is proven in industry every day.
Thanks.
I'm working on the automatic induction annealer in my free time. I'm currently designing the layout of the machine, and the controls.
I'm out of town for the week but hope to build the housing of the machine this coming weekend when I get back into town.
I keep the blog on my website current with any updates I have on the automatic induction annealer. http://www.rifles-shooting-reloading.com/Reloading-blog.html
I'm working on the automatic induction annealer in my free time. I'm currently designing the layout of the machine, and the controls.
I'm out of town for the week but hope to build the housing of the machine this coming weekend when I get back into town.
I keep the blog on my website current with any updates I have on the automatic induction annealer. http://www.rifles-shooting-reloading.com/Reloading-blog.html
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