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Annealing Last

I anneal first. It makes sense to me. return the brass to the state you want it in then, shape it the way you want it.

Now some things you just have to do in order. But others you can try out of order. The results make this seem like it's worth a try.

If you size before anneal, you'll probably need a smaller bushing because there will be more spring back.

--Jerry
 
I anneal first. It makes sense to me. return the brass to the state you want it in then, shape it the way you want it.

Now some things you just have to do in order. But others you can try out of order. The results make this seem like it's worth a try.

If you size before anneal, you'll probably need a smaller bushing because there will be more spring back.

--Jerry
And I would think a little more shoulder set back.
 
Fundamentally doesn't annealing last assume that your gun will shoot better with less neck tension? I would think that's something you'd need to test...

An interesting question which has been debated numerous times in threads on this forum. My take is this: in figuring out an optimum neck grip dimension, we test different combinations of neck bushings and expander mandrels to arrive at some combination which produces the best accuracy and precision at the target. All is well and good, except that if annealing was done at some point near the beginning of the case prep cycle, the various steps in the reloading process will be cold working and thus hardening the brass. How much hardening has occurred? Without taking micro hardness measurements at each step alone the way, no one knows. My feeling is that a freshly annealed case neck will provide the most consistent neck hardness for any given neck ID. Whether softer neck area brass holds bullets less tight than harder neck area brass is a good question.

Ken
 
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An interesting question which has been debated numerous time in threads on this forum. My take is this: in figuring out an optimum neck grip dimension, we test different combinations of neck bushings and expander mandrels to arrive at some combination which produces the best accuracy and precision at the target. All is well and good, except that if annealing was done at some point near the beginning of the case prep cycle, the various steps in the reloading process will be cold working and thus hardening the brass. How much hardening has occurred? Without taking micro hardness measurements at each step alone the way, no one knows. My feeling is that a freshly annealed case neck will provide the most consistent neck hardness for any given neck ID. Whether softer neck area brass holds bullets less tight than harder neck area brass is a good question.
In regard to neck tension after or before annealing, it is often quoted that annealing reduces neck tension, which is true, although springback is actually INCREASED. This is where the lines are often blurred because the wrong information is put out there so often. Many believe springback is REDUCED by annealing, this is not true. Springback in hard brass is almost non-existent, which is why it is harder to size and it is prone to cracking.

Neck tension is also believed to aide in bullet release by many, again, this is untruth. Neck tension changes start pressure by a fraction of a second, once the case is pressurized by the primer flash, the case is already starting to expand at the neck. This is also why factory ammo is crimped 99% of the time, the change in start pressure is beneficial in making the ammo have small SD's, generally speaking. Obviously not all factory ammo produces good groups in every gun, but it is often more than not that it does.
This is easily seen when fire forming cases and a less than ideal charge is used, the forward half of the case is expanded to the chamber, while the rear of it stays the same.
The neck expands first and easiest due to it's thin construction. Bullet release happens when the neck expands, not from the drag imparted when the bullet was seated.
Another misconception is from bullet runout changing after annealing, yes it does, but does it change anything on target?
I tested this in a comp barrel in 300WM with 210gr Berger VLD's, even .008" runout didn't effect on target results, it stayed the same with a tuned known load.
The throat controls bullet alignment, not the neck, it can't, it has already expanded releasing the bullet even before the bullet hits the rifling.

As to annealing after sizing, I see this as reducing neck tension due to softer brass, nothing more.
I have always annealed before sizing, after cleaning and trimming, if necessary.
I think I will try a batch of 20 of each and see which, if any, change on target results.

Cheers.
:cool:
 
In regard to neck tension after or before annealing, it is often quoted that annealing reduces neck tension, which is true, although springback is actually INCREASED. This is where the lines are often blurred because the wrong information is put out there so often. Many believe springback is REDUCED by annealing, this is not true. Springback in hard brass is almost non-existent, which is why it is harder to size and it is prone to cracking.

Neck tension is also believed to aide in bullet release by many, again, this is untruth. Neck tension changes start pressure by a fraction of a second, once the case is pressurized by the primer flash, the case is already starting to expand at the neck. This is also why factory ammo is crimped 99% of the time, the change in start pressure is beneficial in making the ammo have small SD's, generally speaking. Obviously not all factory ammo produces good groups in every gun, but it is often more than not that it does.
This is easily seen when fire forming cases and a less than ideal charge is used, the forward half of the case is expanded to the chamber, while the rear of it stays the same.
The neck expands first and easiest due to it's thin construction. Bullet release happens when the neck expands, not from the drag imparted when the bullet was seated.
Another misconception is from bullet runout changing after annealing, yes it does, but does it change anything on target?
I tested this in a comp barrel in 300WM with 210gr Berger VLD's, even .008" runout didn't effect on target results, it stayed the same with a tuned known load.
The throat controls bullet alignment, not the neck, it can't, it has already expanded releasing the bullet even before the bullet hits the rifling.

As to annealing after sizing, I see this as reducing neck tension due to softer brass, nothing more.
I have always annealed before sizing, after cleaning and trimming, if necessary.
I think I will try a batch of 20 of each and see which, if any, change on target results.

Cheers.
:cool:
One box of Hornady Match (a match for what?) .308 brass had issues. I resized them first using a Forster benchrest F/L die. Then expanded and neck turned. I loaded a few and fired them. Didn't seem as accurate as they should. Looking at the fired cases one side of the necks had a soot deposit and the other was 100% clean. I checked the unloaded ones for runout and in the middle of the necks, most had at least .008" -.010". I ran them back through the F/L die and nothing changed. All annealing would do without resizing afterwards is to produce a softer misaligned neck. I annealed, resized and then run the neck K&M turning tool over them,. No metal was removed until I got to withing 1/8" of the shoulders and it all came off one side of each. I ran them back through the die again and the runout in the middle of most of the necks was now .001" -.002" and a few at .003". The few cases that were fired earlier straightened out.

I plan to do a runout test if I can get them misaligned enough without changing the neck tension much. At least a 10 shot group of each.
 
Realistically most of us cannot shoot accurately enough to see a 5-10% improvement. Can you shoot 0.275” aggregates at 100 yards. It makes sense to anneal then size to get the proper case size and shape. It’s all guess work. Everyone seems to think that annealing gets you to a certain brass hardness. It doesn’t because we are all annealing slightly differently with different makes of brass. None of us are annealing to a specific hardness. The important thing is to do it the same way each time.


One of the annealing machine manufacturers says they publish data annealing time to get a specific hardness. Nothing wrong with this except there is an assumption that consistently annealing to a certain unknown hardness is worse than annealing to a specific hardness.
 
Sorry but I just don't see your logic. We will just shake hands and go our own way.
It would seem that proper annealing followed by proper sizing would provide the same consistency in hardness of the neck and leave you with piece of mind that the shoulders were all consistently set.

I agree.
 
Food for thought...Thanks Ken...I've just got to try it. If it does make a difference, well I just won't say anything. I'll just have a better load than the rest!!!

Sundown
 
Sorry but I just don't see your logic. We will just shake hands and go our own way.
It would seem that proper annealing followed by proper sizing would provide the same consistency in hardness of the neck and leave you with piece of mind that the shoulders were all consistently set.

Understand and fully support the "to each his own" philosophy.

Ken
 
I’ve decided to modify my reloading procedure in order to place annealing at the end of the process, after ultrasonic cleaning, and prior to reconstructing a loaded round with primer, powder, and bullet. My logic for doing this is as follows: According to information available on the AMP website, the actual firing of a cartridge does not affect the hardness of the brass significantly. That would seem to indicate that if the cases were annealed prior to firing, after firing they would be in essentially the same condition and would not be damaged by the reloading process without first annealing. Granted, we all do things a little differently but in general, returning an empty case to the point that it is ready for reloading usually involves full length sizing, case trimming, neck sizing, neck expansion ...etc, with varying degrees of cleaning in between. Again according to AMP’s website, these operations will add approximately 30 HV in work hardening to the neck/shoulder area of the brass case. In order to achieve the most uniform neck grip, this work hardening should be removed by annealing prior to seating the bullet.

Early results of this change look promising. Time will tell if annealing at the end of the process is better than after initial cleaning – as I was doing before. Others may have already come to this conclusion and it seems to make sense to me.



Ken
I started doing this 3 months ago and have not come across any issues so far ammo is still very accurate.

Cheers Trev.
 
I started doing this 3 months ago and have not come across any issues so far ammo is still very accurate.

Cheers Trev.

Ah - a few converts have come forth to publicly confess the heresy of annealing as a near to last step in the reloading process. Nude nut, would you say this change has made your ammo noticeably more accurate or no discernible change but didn't ruin anything either?

The reason I ask is that I saw my vertical really flatten out to approximately 0.6 inch at 400 yds with 0.002 inch neck grip and the case annealed just before priming. This was during round robin testing at 0.001, 0.002, 0.003, and 0.004 inch grip. Haven't had a chance to shoot this combination at 1000 yds yet but will do so in the next few weeks.

Happy Shooting!

Ken
 
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Ah - a few converts have come forth to publicly confess the heresy of annealing as a near to last step in the reloading process. Nude nut, would you say this change has made your ammo noticeably more accurate or no discernible change but didn't ruin anything either?

The reason I ask is that I saw my vertical really flatten out to approximately 0.6 inch at 400 yds with 0.002 inch neck grip and the case annealed just before priming. This was during round robin testing at 0.001, 0.002, 0.003, and 0.004 inch grip. Haven't had a chance to shoot this combination at 1000 yds yet but will do so in the next few weeks.

Happy Shooting!

Ken
Ken, how did the other neck tensions shoot as compared to the .002"? What kind of group did you get at 400 yards?
 
Largest group was about 2.5 inches and was actually the 0.002 inch group with the noticeably better vertical. Smallest was about 1.8 inches.

This test was 5 shots at each grip dimension fired round robin. Attached are the test targets.

Ken 0.001 Neck Grip.JPG 0.002 Neck Grip.JPG 0.003 Neck Grip.JPG 0.004 Neck Grip.JPG
 
Ken[/QUOTE]
I’ve decided to modify my reloading procedure in order to place annealing at the end of the process, after ultrasonic cleaning, and prior to reconstructing a loaded round with primer, powder, and bullet. My logic for doing this is as follows: According to information available on the AMP website, the actual firing of a cartridge does not affect the hardness of the brass significantly. That would seem to indicate that if the cases were annealed prior to firing, after firing they would be in essentially the same condition and would not be damaged by the reloading process without first annealing. Granted, we all do things a little differently but in general, returning an empty case to the point that it is ready for reloading usually involves full length sizing, case trimming, neck sizing, neck expansion ...etc, with varying degrees of cleaning in between. Again according to AMP’s website, these operations will add approximately 30 HV in work hardening to the neck/shoulder area of the brass case. In order to achieve the most uniform neck grip, this work hardening should be removed by annealing prior to seating the bullet.

Early results of this change look promising. Time will tell if annealing at the end of the process is better than after initial cleaning – as I was doing before. Others may have already come to this conclusion and it seems to make sense to me.



Ken

Ken,
You have a good theory the problem is neck tension or more specifically bullet release. I have tested the process that you're doing both I couldn't get consistent results. I did get occasional good results, but overall I ended up with too many flyers to make viable for competition.

The problem with annealing last is that the seating pressure (measured with a 21st Century harbor press) goes way up, in most cases. Heating the brass has a way of "raising the grain" resulting in higher seating pressure and inconsistent results. I tried mitigating the additional resistance with numerous lubrication methods but none produced consistent results. You are getting warm with your methodology but IMO you have a way to go yet.

We have many people here that are reloading experts, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If you get really good results come out to a match. If you do well everyone will take notice and you'll have a big following. Jade Delcambre AKA Down South mentioned in his post that he didn't buy in and you missed a good opportunity to pick his brain. If you don't know who he is go look at the NRA F-TR records for 20 shots, 1,000 yards. You will find his name at the top of the list. Get him to explain his methodology and tools than you have something really worthwhile.

Kindest regards,

Joe
 
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Ken,
You have a good theory the problem is neck tension or more specifically bullet release. I have tested the process that you're doing both I couldn't get consistent results. I did get occasional good results, but overall I ended up with too many flyers to make viable for competition.

The problem with annealing last is that the seating pressure (measured with a 21st Century harbor press) goes way up, in most cases. Heating the brass has a way of "raising the grain" resulting in higher seating pressure and inconsistent results. I tried mitigating the additional resistance with numerous lubrication methods but none produced consistent results. You are getting warm with your methodology but IMO you have a way to go yet.

We have many people here that are reloading experts, but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If you get really good results come out to a match. If you do well everyone will take notice and you'll have a big following. Jade Delcambre AKA Down South mentioned in his post that he didn't buy in and you missed a good opportunity to pick his brain. If you don't know who he is go look at the NRA F-TR records for 20 shots, 1,000 yards. You will find his name at the top of the list. Get him to explain his methodology and tools than you have something really worthwhile.

Kindest regards,

Joe
Are you saying surface condition of the neck id affects bullet release? Interesting.

The hydro seater can end up just indicating the difference in surface finish of your necks. Resize a couple pieces of brass. Run a nylon brush in one neck one time. Run it in another neck three times. Run it in the third neck under power in a hand drill. Seat bullets in those three necks and compare hydro seater readings.

Question is, does this affect release?
 
Are you saying surface condition of the neck id affects bullet release? Interesting.

The hydro seater can end up just indicating the difference in surface finish of your necks. Resize a couple pieces of brass. Run a nylon brush in one neck one time. Run it in another neck three times. Run it in the third neck under power in a hand drill. Seat bullets in those three necks and compare hydro seater readings.

Question is, does this affect release?

Been there, done that. Even polished the inside of the neck with a steel wool wrapped around a brush and spun it with a drill for a few seconds. I got really smooth and consistent seating pressures. My ESs for a ten shot group were in the single digit, alas it didn't help much past a 100 yards. Why? Because of wind and mirage.

Trying to turn 1/2 MOA ammo in to 1/4 or 1/8 MOA is largely a waste of time if you can't read wind and mirage. Like many books tell you, spend your time on the range learning to read the conditions. Like Bryan Litz shows in his book (Accuracy and Precision...), the ability to more accurately estimate wind speed by 1 mph will add nine points to your score. Can't do that in the reloading room.

Joe
 
Been there, done that. Even polished the inside of the neck with a steel wool wrapped around a brush and spun it with a drill for a few seconds. I got really smooth and consistent seating pressures. My ESs for a ten shot group were in the single digit, alas it didn't help much past a 100 yards. Why? Because of wind and mirage.

Trying to turn 1/2 MOA ammo in to 1/4 or 1/8 MOA is largely a waste of time if you can't read wind and mirage. Like many books tell you, spend your time on the range learning to read the conditions. Like Bryan Litz shows in his book (Accuracy and Precision...), the ability to more accurately estimate wind speed by 1 mph will add nine points to your score. Can't do that in the reloading room.

Joe

I hear you on the wind reading.

So, are you saying that polishing the inside of your necks reduced your ES? That's what I am wondering. It seems to me that neck expansion would happen before the bullet moves against the friction of the surface finish of the neck? Just to be clear, because it is sometimes hard to tell on the internet, I am not arguing. I am asking/discussing.

If annealing last raises the grain, I wonder how or if that affects release? It doesn't seem like it would affect neck grip, constriction, holds, tensions, or whatever you want to call it? Is it possible that annealing last introduces some extra degree of softness that affects the consistency of the diameter of the necks? Again, just trying to flush the idea out.
 
@Dos XX
Cool to ask such questions, and not saying not to ask and discuss, but in the end testing those scenario's in your own rifles from your own reloading equipment and preparation steps will be the truth/fact for you.
Often what works for one person does not for another, and visa versa.
Just saying.....
Donovan
 
@Dos XX
Cool to ask such questions, and not saying not to ask and discuss, but in the end testing those scenario's in your own rifles from your own reloading equipment and preparation steps will be the truth/fact for you.
Often what works for one person does not for another, and visa versa.
Just saying.....
Donovan

I definitely will be testing it.
 

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