Trying to uniform neck tension for 600-1k shooting and brass annealing was suggested so Going to have a go at annealing some 4th fired 308 Lapua brass and would be greatfull with some pointers, I will be spinning brass with drill whielst heating with propane torch and was informed to heat till case neck and sholder junction only untill turns blue in colour then to cool into bucket of water, Does cases have to be cooled using water or could they be left standing to cool before being sized? Also i noticed on a few test annealed cases which were left to cool without water that necks seemed tighter when ran through neck size die is this the case when annealing brass? Thanks.
Annealing Lapua brass.
- Thread starter paulT
- Start date
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Having the relation of the flame to the case, and the time in flame be very consistent is important. We used some 3,4,and 500 degree Tempilaq http://www.tempil.com/closeup.asp?cid=25&pid=27&theme=0 , in parallel vertical stripes down a case from shoulder to head, to set up an annealing machine with two converging torches, that paused the case in the flame, on a timer. (only did this on a set up case) On a 7mmWSM I think that the time was about 6 seconds, which would melt the 500 degree Tempilaq down to a quarter of an inch below the shoulder of the case. It would seem to me that a single torch would heat enough slower that I might worry about the heat having time to go further down the case and soften the head. For this reason, I might use a fixed rotating water bath for the case while annealing, keeping the bottom half of the case immersed, I know that this may seem like overkill, but it is not readily apparent that a case head has been softened, and firing one in that condition would be extremely dangerous.
I would drop the cases in water. You don't want the temperature moving down the case.
You need to get the cases up to 800 deg F for a few seconds to anneal them. An 800 F Tempilstick can be a help, but perhaps easier is to do the annealing in a just barely lit room at night. You should see a slight red color at 800 F or so.
http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Temperature_when_metal_glows_red
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_copper_alloy_c26000_cartridge_brass
You need to get the cases up to 800 deg F for a few seconds to anneal them. An 800 F Tempilstick can be a help, but perhaps easier is to do the annealing in a just barely lit room at night. You should see a slight red color at 800 F or so.
http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Temperature_when_metal_glows_red
http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_copper_alloy_c26000_cartridge_brass
See Boyd's post. You paint this liquid on like fingernail polish. It turns when correct temp is reached.
Chip
Chip
Use 750 degree Tempilaq. You don't want to overheat the brass, and with 800 you will have very little time to remove the heat before you have gone too far. The 750 gives you a little more lee-way.
You can also get a infrared thermometer and remove the torch from the brass and check temp. Once you get a rhythm down it's easy to know when it's done.
Good article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
And don't bother with tempilstick, it's much harder to use than tempilaq.
You can also get a infrared thermometer and remove the torch from the brass and check temp. Once you get a rhythm down it's easy to know when it's done.
Good article on annealing: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
And don't bother with tempilstick, it's much harder to use than tempilaq.
The properties of the metal (Brass) itself determine the temperature it is annealed at.
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Most all cartridge brass is very similar, and will all anneal at the same temperature.
Read the link in my previous post, it explains the whole process in great detail.
The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.
Most all cartridge brass is very similar, and will all anneal at the same temperature.
Read the link in my previous post, it explains the whole process in great detail.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
PaulT,
From the outset, let me say I know very little about annealing brass and that from having read posts by folks who have constructive suggestions. But can you or anybody explain to me why you would even want to anneal 4th times loaded .308 brass in the first place. My understanding annealing is supposed to put the elasticity back into your brass and frankly I don't understand how you could have lost that elasticity after only 3 or 4 reloadings? Please explain what you expect to accomplish by annealing only 4 times fired .308 brass. Thx .
Alex
From the outset, let me say I know very little about annealing brass and that from having read posts by folks who have constructive suggestions. But can you or anybody explain to me why you would even want to anneal 4th times loaded .308 brass in the first place. My understanding annealing is supposed to put the elasticity back into your brass and frankly I don't understand how you could have lost that elasticity after only 3 or 4 reloadings? Please explain what you expect to accomplish by annealing only 4 times fired .308 brass. Thx .
Alex
Wayne, I anneal almost all my brass from 2 to 5 firings, the more accurate the rifle the more often I anneal for it.
I actually built my own annealing machine, based on the turn table designs.
After you find the right amount of time to play the torch or torches on the necks of different size and thickness, it becomes pretty easy. Having a machine that will allow a consistent heat time is a major help, as that's one less thing you need to worry about. I have notes with the speed settings for all my brass, so every time they get annealed it's for the same amount of time. You may need to fine tune a little each time it's used, as it's difficult to keep the flame the exact same size as the gas empties from the bottle. But it's really not all that hard after you know what the brass needs to look like when it's being annealed.
I actually built my own annealing machine, based on the turn table designs.
After you find the right amount of time to play the torch or torches on the necks of different size and thickness, it becomes pretty easy. Having a machine that will allow a consistent heat time is a major help, as that's one less thing you need to worry about. I have notes with the speed settings for all my brass, so every time they get annealed it's for the same amount of time. You may need to fine tune a little each time it's used, as it's difficult to keep the flame the exact same size as the gas empties from the bottle. But it's really not all that hard after you know what the brass needs to look like when it's being annealed.
Shynloco, the reason for annealing so often is consistency. Even after just a few firing and sizing cycles brass will begin to get a bit harder. The more consistent the neck tension is, the more consistent your accuracy will be.
It also extends the life of the brass significantly. I have some .30-06 brass that is full length sized every firing with nearly 20 firings on it, and no signs of necks getting any stiffer or cracking. It's used in a semi-auto with a factory chamber of ample dimensions, so the brass is worked a bit as well.
It also extends the life of the brass significantly. I have some .30-06 brass that is full length sized every firing with nearly 20 firings on it, and no signs of necks getting any stiffer or cracking. It's used in a semi-auto with a factory chamber of ample dimensions, so the brass is worked a bit as well.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Kenny474,
Thx for the explanation. Obviously annealing works for you. Now not taking exception with ANYTHING you said, but it never ceases to amaze me that in the area of reloading, how many people have different points of view of how they manage their brass. For instance, I was taught mNOY to full length size brass unless absolutely necessary, Rather I was told to "bump shoulder" if necessary because "working brass" in any form shortens it's life. But your explanation of annealing brass appears to contract that theory and practice I just mentioned I was taught to do. Now admittedly, the thought of annealing brass is a bit worrysome for ferar not not being able to do it consistently on the brass. Perhaps practice is the answer.
The only other question that came to mind in your explanation was improvement in accuracy by annealing. I guess I'm looking at what I presently shoot and how much of an improvement can I REASONABLE expect by annealing if I don't full length size and have only had to bump shoulders on a few pieces of Lapua 6mm in 11 reloadings?
Thx.
Alex
Thx for the explanation. Obviously annealing works for you. Now not taking exception with ANYTHING you said, but it never ceases to amaze me that in the area of reloading, how many people have different points of view of how they manage their brass. For instance, I was taught mNOY to full length size brass unless absolutely necessary, Rather I was told to "bump shoulder" if necessary because "working brass" in any form shortens it's life. But your explanation of annealing brass appears to contract that theory and practice I just mentioned I was taught to do. Now admittedly, the thought of annealing brass is a bit worrysome for ferar not not being able to do it consistently on the brass. Perhaps practice is the answer.
The only other question that came to mind in your explanation was improvement in accuracy by annealing. I guess I'm looking at what I presently shoot and how much of an improvement can I REASONABLE expect by annealing if I don't full length size and have only had to bump shoulders on a few pieces of Lapua 6mm in 11 reloadings?
Thx.
Alex
paulT- I have annealed in daylight using the "blue-ring" as an indicator, and also in a darkened room using dull red/orange on the neck as an indicator.....both methods yield the same appearance found on new Lapua brass.
I polish the brass first with steel wool so that the blue ring is more easily seen. I spin the brass in a case trimmer around 60 rpm.
Using a standard propane torch, hand-held, I direct the tip of the flame (~3"-4") 90* to the neck only. Depending on the residual pressure in the tank, the time will vary....but if you pay close attention you will see the blue ring travel down the case (daylight)...or will plainly see the neck START to glow (dark room method).
I don't use water ...water quenching brass does not change it's properties, so why contaminate case with water? Once the flame is removed from the case, cooling begins..... any residual heat migrating to the head of the case is negligible- furthermore the case head is in contact with the shell holder apparatus which acts as a heat-sink.
Just limit the blue ring discoloration to the same point as factory Lapua.
Experiment on scrap brass. Purposely overheat some pieces and crimp the necks to gauge a dead soft condition...then crimp some brass which you have not annealed and a properly annealed case and take note of spring-back.
I polish the brass first with steel wool so that the blue ring is more easily seen. I spin the brass in a case trimmer around 60 rpm.
Using a standard propane torch, hand-held, I direct the tip of the flame (~3"-4") 90* to the neck only. Depending on the residual pressure in the tank, the time will vary....but if you pay close attention you will see the blue ring travel down the case (daylight)...or will plainly see the neck START to glow (dark room method).
I don't use water ...water quenching brass does not change it's properties, so why contaminate case with water? Once the flame is removed from the case, cooling begins..... any residual heat migrating to the head of the case is negligible- furthermore the case head is in contact with the shell holder apparatus which acts as a heat-sink.
Just limit the blue ring discoloration to the same point as factory Lapua.
Experiment on scrap brass. Purposely overheat some pieces and crimp the necks to gauge a dead soft condition...then crimp some brass which you have not annealed and a properly annealed case and take note of spring-back.
Shynloco,
honestly, I feel the only way you will really be able to notice the amount of accuracy gained by annealing is if you shoot something like a 6ppc that groups in the .1's or if you are shooting at 1000yds. Then you may actually notice when your brass is getting stiffer and causing neck tension issues as your groups may start to open up just a bit as brass gets stiff. Some rifles may never show any sign of lost accuracy. I am not sure it actually helps by any measurable amount, as I haven't proven it. But lots of top shooters swear by it, and they shoot far better than I.
I started annealing to prolong the life of my brass and try to make things more consistent. It wasn't to try to improve accuracy by any measurable amount, as there are many other areas I should probably work on before I start nit-picking small details.
I too also only full length size or bump shoulders when it gets tight to chamber. Though my 30-06 is a semi-auto and necessitates full length sizing so it will function. If I didn't anneal the brass it uses, they would only last maybe 5 or 6 loadings, as it's tough on brass to start and the chamber is a bit loose. It also usually dents the necks up pretty good on ejection. It's just an anomaly as far as sizing routine goes, as I load very differently for it than I do my bolt rifles. But it still shoots just under MOA, which isn't bad for a 50+ year old semi-auto, and it still drops it's share of deer as well.
honestly, I feel the only way you will really be able to notice the amount of accuracy gained by annealing is if you shoot something like a 6ppc that groups in the .1's or if you are shooting at 1000yds. Then you may actually notice when your brass is getting stiffer and causing neck tension issues as your groups may start to open up just a bit as brass gets stiff. Some rifles may never show any sign of lost accuracy. I am not sure it actually helps by any measurable amount, as I haven't proven it. But lots of top shooters swear by it, and they shoot far better than I.
I started annealing to prolong the life of my brass and try to make things more consistent. It wasn't to try to improve accuracy by any measurable amount, as there are many other areas I should probably work on before I start nit-picking small details.
I too also only full length size or bump shoulders when it gets tight to chamber. Though my 30-06 is a semi-auto and necessitates full length sizing so it will function. If I didn't anneal the brass it uses, they would only last maybe 5 or 6 loadings, as it's tough on brass to start and the chamber is a bit loose. It also usually dents the necks up pretty good on ejection. It's just an anomaly as far as sizing routine goes, as I load very differently for it than I do my bolt rifles. But it still shoots just under MOA, which isn't bad for a 50+ year old semi-auto, and it still drops it's share of deer as well.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Kenney474,
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying simply because I am a "bolt gun guy" and do not load for semi-auto's. I recently gave the my AR15 (vintage 1985) to one of my son's simply because I'm an accuracy freak and occasionally have reasonable success with my 6mmbr and .308 Ruger M77 in shooting target groups (3 & 4 shot) @100 yds under .200. Another thing that bugged me about the AR is the beating the extractor's do on the casings which you so aptly point out. So I've stuck with bolt guns pretty much and work on their potential for accuracy. But this whole business about annealing is intreging, yet worries me that I'll screw up perfectly good casings that shoot very good groups with consistency. Now I'd love to be able to sit down with you and pick your brain and you'd get a feel for my thinking and how I got there. Certainly not being the sharpest blade in the drawer sometimes makes it tough to decipher some of the things I read and hear only because the idea seems to conflict with some theories and practices already in my head.
But I really do appreciate your patience in explaining why you do what you do and to what. Take care and keep sharing those thoughts and ideas for all our sakes.
Alex
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying simply because I am a "bolt gun guy" and do not load for semi-auto's. I recently gave the my AR15 (vintage 1985) to one of my son's simply because I'm an accuracy freak and occasionally have reasonable success with my 6mmbr and .308 Ruger M77 in shooting target groups (3 & 4 shot) @100 yds under .200. Another thing that bugged me about the AR is the beating the extractor's do on the casings which you so aptly point out. So I've stuck with bolt guns pretty much and work on their potential for accuracy. But this whole business about annealing is intreging, yet worries me that I'll screw up perfectly good casings that shoot very good groups with consistency. Now I'd love to be able to sit down with you and pick your brain and you'd get a feel for my thinking and how I got there. Certainly not being the sharpest blade in the drawer sometimes makes it tough to decipher some of the things I read and hear only because the idea seems to conflict with some theories and practices already in my head.
But I really do appreciate your patience in explaining why you do what you do and to what. Take care and keep sharing those thoughts and ideas for all our sakes.
Alex
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Alex,
I am a very opinioniated person myself and sometimes I read things into these post that are not there or wern't intended as anything bad just another mans opinion,and after all that is why we are out here ( to give our and to recieve other)
Opinions
That was a nice reply you wrote to kenny474. More people need to be like you, Thanks.
Wayne.
I am a very opinioniated person myself and sometimes I read things into these post that are not there or wern't intended as anything bad just another mans opinion,and after all that is why we are out here ( to give our and to recieve other)
Opinions
That was a nice reply you wrote to kenny474. More people need to be like you, Thanks.Wayne.
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