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Annealing - Fast and Hot OR Slow and Warm

Hello,
I have just got an annealing machine single burner not auto feed I have a question or two if yous dont mind helping with in regards to where should the flame be in the middle of neck or at the neck shoulder junction.
Also how far should the tip of the blue flame be from the brass.
I only had 650f tempilaq so I paintid it down the case from soulder to the case head it only changed colour about 1/2 a cm below the shoulder so im confident the casehead should be good that was with the flame about a cm away from case just above shoulder junction for 7 seconds.
This was lapua brass it didnt have the normal annealed look but a slight gold looking colour and a oxidized looking ring 1/2cm bellow the shoulder may need a second or two extra I think.

Cheers Trev.
 
Mozella,
Thank you for the paper on the team's results. I have given a light read so far, but need to do a much more thorough reading, as during morning times I feel mentally challenged.
Jim
 
Mozella said:
Here http://www.nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan%20Stevenson%20-%20Dissertation.pdf is a very interesting scientific study about cartridge brass. It's long and most people will not take the time to read it (even though serious reloaders should).

Very interesting article. I think my takeaways were about the same as yours.

Annealing is a sensitive process and inconsistencies in time/temp can produce inconsistencies in the resulting hardness change of the brass. This is where an annealing machine would have an advantage over the torch/drill method. I do try to be consistent with my own torch/drill method in terms of flame size, placement/positioning/angle of the brass in the flame, rate of spin on the drill, and time (use a metronome). I'm sure it's still not as consistent as a machine would be.

It's better to anneal more often, so long as you're not over annealing in your process. I've switched to annealing every firing.
 
On the time of annealing issue, when a friend was going to start annealing using the Hornady kit, which is used very much like a socket and drill, I suggested that he purchase an inexpensive electronic metronome, and set it for 60 beats per minute to audibly count off the seconds, so that all he had to watch was the position of the case neck relative to the flame. He did, and reported that this was a great aid. I think that it cost him a little over $20. If you are annealing in a room that has a computer, or have a laptop on wifi that can be used in your shop/garage you can find web sites that have a metronome feature, so that you do not have to buy anything. Here is a link to one. https://www.metronomeonline.com/
If you want to buy one, here is an example that costs a little less than $6 including shipping. http://www.amazon.com/SODIAL-TM-Digital-Metronome-Battery/dp/B005VKSIHQ/ref=sr_1_10?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1449326280&sr=1-10&keywords=metronome
My friend got what he wanted from annealing. His bullet seating effort became much more uniform, and his overall accuracy was improved. I suppose anything can be done badly, but with average ability, he was able to accomplish his goal with relative ease, and simple machinery. I suppose that I should mention that the Hornady kit, which I understand they have stopped offering, included some tempilaq, 450 degree I believe (Correct me if I am wrong.) I did not get a chance to read the instructions but at that temperature, I would assume that it was to be applied down the case body, rather than inside case necks. Of course once a flame setting, distance and time had been determined, it would not be needed for more than the test case that was used for that purpose. Although I have helped friends with their annealing, I have not done if for myself, because with necks turned in the range of .008 to .0085, using a powder (133) that seems to do better with a decent amount of neck tension, I have preferred not to soften necks any, but rather sort to group cases based on feel when seating bullets, shooting like with like in my 6PPC. For varmint work, I have been able to come up with satisfactory accuracy without annealing.
 
BoydAllen said:
On the time of annealing issue, when a friend was going to start annealing using the Hornady kit, which is used very much like a socket and drill, I suggested that he purchase an inexpensive electronic metronome, and set it for 60 beats per minute to audibly count off the seconds, so that all he had to watch was the position of the case neck relative to the flame. He did, and reported that this was a great aid. I think that it cost him a little over $20.

I've used a metronome from day one. I'm a musician so I already had one. My main reason for annealing is to avoid split necks. If it improves accuracy (in conjunction with neck turning) that's a bonus. The drill and torch method with a metronome, if flame placement is consistent, and exposure time controlled to within a fraction of a second, is in my opinion plenty good enough for my purposes, and probably most folks reading this.
 
Annealing needs to be complete before the heat migrates to the base of the case and starts softening the base. I don't know what that maximum time limit is, but I'd guess anything over 8 seconds is getting into dangerous territory.

It isn't possible to get 750F on the case head with any kind of reasonable annealing. Could someone fry a case with an annealer and tell use how long it takes for the head to reach 700-750F? Why are there hundreds of questions on annealing over and over again? Much of the data is personal quessing but there is plenty of accurate info if you do a search. My opinion is that about 8 seconds with a single torch is as close as you can get to a factory anneal. More than ten seconds you are in an time/temp area that the hardness drops fast and uncontrollable. There is plenty of accurate data to back this up.


70/30 brass sheet metal cold rolled with a 25% reduction in thickness and 50 minutes at 350C in a furnace at constant temp, no change in hardness.
http://che.uri.edu/course/che333/Annealing of 70-30 Brass.pdf
 
While I have read most every thread on annealing that has been written on this site in the last year I don't recall anyone taking into consideration what happens when we put a case through the re-loading process.
Most of us do neck-sizing with a slight shoulder bump. It is not possible to bump the shoulder of a case WITHOUT full length re-sizing the entire case. This process by definition should be "work-hardening" the entire case. That's the reason most of us anneal, to mitigate the work hardening of the necks. Well if the entire case is being "work-hardened" that should give us an even greater margin of error in regards to over-heating a case head during the annealing process.JMO, I don't have any science to back this up. Just seems like common sense to me. Annealing, if done prudently is not rocket science. It has been described and discussed "ad nauseum" on this site. If you don't feel confident in your ability to time it properly with the drill and socket method--buy a machine, test with tempilaque on scrap brass and move on. This really is a simple process not a big mystery. JMO, dedogs
 
Sometimes you can improve your scores by spending more money.

Sometimes science seems to urge you to spend more money. If you have a lot of money to spend, it is easier to believe that you can improve your scores by spending more money.





Sometimes you're just spending more money
 
Sometimes you can improve your scores by spending more money.

Sometimes science seems to urge you to spend more money. If you have a lot of money to spend, it is easier to believe that you can improve your scores by spending more money.





Sometimes you're just spending more money
Just purchased the annealeeze machine as it takes up the least amount of space and looks as close to a XXXXXXXX as I'll ever own I'm thinking. Variable speed, variable heat and time controls seems to say it all.
 
How hot does the case neck get when a round is fired ? Anywhere near the annealing temperature ?
 
The firing event is over too quickly to get the cases to anneal. If they did they wouldn't survive as the heads would anneal and fail.
 
Sometimes you can improve your scores by spending more money.

Sometimes science seems to urge you to spend more money. If you have a lot of money to spend, it is easier to believe that you can improve your scores by spending more money.





Sometimes you're just spending more money
I can guarantee that proper annealing helps on scores. I had two guns, one Heavy and one light. In 2008 I shot 5 matches (the first half the season) without annealing. I shot the second half annealing. So that is 10 targets of 10 shots at 1000 yards with and without. The targets with the annealing had better groups but the scores went way higher. Up until that year I never shot a 100 score. After annealing I shot three 100 scores out of the ten targets with annealing. Eight years of competition with lots of group aggregate wins and no score aggregate wins. The next year I won score aggregates and set score aggregate records. I won many score aggregates and shot many 100 scores since I started annealing. This is not a coincidence. Matt
 
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I can guarantee that proper annealing helps on scores. I had two guns, one Heavy and one light. In 2008 I shot 5 matches (the first half the season) without annealing. I shot the second half annealing. So that is 10 targets of 10 shots at 1000 yards with and without. The targets with the annealing had better groups but the scores went way higher. Up until that year I never shot a 100 score. After annealing I shot three 100 scores out of the ten targets with annealing. Eight years of competition with lots of group aggregate wins and no score aggregate wins. The next year I won score aggregates and set score aggregate records. I won many score aggregates and shot many 100 scores since I started annealing. This is not a coincidence. Matt

Interesting use of the word "guarantee". I would like to see the statistical evidence for the statement. What were the other variables, and how were they controlled, in support of your guarantee? Are you saying that "correlation is causation"?

Not meaning to pick nits (well, perhaps I do mean to), but the 71 page "dissertation" cited by others above contains NO objective evidence of the affect of annealing, either correctly or incorrectly (whatever that means), on the actual accuracy of cartridges. The paper DOES contain statements like this one:

As it is the cartridge that holds the bullet in place; differences in the properties of the brass can affect the exit velocity of the bullet from the cartridge. This can have serious effects on accuracy as at 1000 yards (914.4m) a change in velocity of 10ft/s (roughly 3ms-1) can cause a shot deviation of a few inches at the target[7].

Nowhere, however, does the paper provide any evidence to support the assertion emboldened above. Various people will no doubt wish to cite "common sense", but that is not scientific, is it? The paper repeatedly uses the word "may" to describe the affect of neck tension and brass microstructure, to wit:

The microstructure variability after annealing will have consequences for shooting accuracy as one round may react differently to another.

This is not science. The author's assertion "will have consequences" is not supported by "may". I could go on, but you get the point. So for anyone to say that "proper" annealing is critical to accuracy, one must first describe exactly what "proper" means (this was the subject of the OP, as you may recall). Most of you are simply saying that "proper" means "with a machine which I bought, because you guys who are doing it with a drill are doing it wrong". What is the actual, measured affect of "doing it right" versus "doing it wrong" versus" doing it not at all"?

No one here has answered, and the cited paper, if it was an actual academic dissertation, should most certainly not have resulted in a passing grade.
 
Interesting use of the word "guarantee". I would like to see the statistical evidence for the statement. What were the other variables, and how were they controlled, in support of your guarantee? Are you saying that "correlation is causation"?

Not meaning to pick nits (well, perhaps I do mean to), but the 71 page "dissertation" cited by others above contains NO objective evidence of the affect of annealing, either correctly or incorrectly (whatever that means), on the actual accuracy of cartridges. The paper DOES contain statements like this one:

As it is the cartridge that holds the bullet in place; differences in the properties of the brass can affect the exit velocity of the bullet from the cartridge. This can have serious effects on accuracy as at 1000 yards (914.4m) a change in velocity of 10ft/s (roughly 3ms-1) can cause a shot deviation of a few inches at the target[7].

Nowhere, however, does the paper provide any evidence to support the assertion emboldened above. Various people will no doubt wish to cite "common sense", but that is not scientific, is it? The paper repeatedly uses the word "may" to describe the affect of neck tension and brass microstructure, to wit:

The microstructure variability after annealing will have consequences for shooting accuracy as one round may react differently to another.

This is not science. The author's assertion "will have consequences" is not supported by "may". I could go on, but you get the point. So for anyone to say that "proper" annealing is critical to accuracy, one must first describe exactly what "proper" means (this was the subject of the OP, as you may recall). Most of you are simply saying that "proper" means "with a machine which I bought, because you guys who are doing it with a drill are doing it wrong". What is the actual, measured affect of "doing it right" versus "doing it wrong" versus" doing it not at all"?

No one here has answered, and the cited paper, if it was an actual academic dissertation, should most certainly not have resulted in a passing grade.
I am talking comparing 10 targets verses 10 targets annealing and not annealing. Shot with the same two guns and nothing else changed. That is comparing 8 years of no 100's, no score agg wins with 7 years of many score agg wins and not only wins but world records shot. Nothing else changed but annealing. Same lot of bullets, some lot of brass and same powder. You can call it non scientific or whatever you want but it proves it to me. I do it with a machine but mine was built by a guy and is way different then any others. I did say annealing correctly.

I was just answering your first post because you made it sound like annealing doesn't help or work. If you saw the 5 targets from each gun laying alongside the other 5 from each gun, changing nothing else but annealing, you would see the difference it made. Matt
 
I am talking comparing 10 targets verses 10 targets annealing and not annealing. Shot with the same two guns and nothing else changed. That is comparing 8 years of no 100's, no score agg wins with 7 years of many score agg wins and not only wins but world records shot. Nothing else changed but annealing. Same lot of bullets, some lot of brass and same powder. You can call it non scientific or whatever you want but it proves it to me. I do it with a machine but mine was built by a guy and is way different then any others. I did say annealing correctly.

I was just answering your first post because you made it sound like annealing doesn't help or work. If you saw the 5 targets from each gun laying alongside the other 5 from each gun, changing nothing else but annealing, you would see the difference it made. Matt
What were the other variables, and how were they controlled? Same temperature, wind, light, barrel wear, ...?
 
Interesting use of the word "guarantee". I would like to see the statistical evidence for the statement. What were the other variables, and how were they controlled, in support of your guarantee? Are you saying that "correlation is causation"?

Not meaning to pick nits (well, perhaps I do mean to), but the 71 page "dissertation" cited by others above contains NO objective evidence of the affect of annealing, either correctly or incorrectly (whatever that means), on the actual accuracy of cartridges. The paper DOES contain statements like this one:

As it is the cartridge that holds the bullet in place; differences in the properties of the brass can affect the exit velocity of the bullet from the cartridge. This can have serious effects on accuracy as at 1000 yards (914.4m) a change in velocity of 10ft/s (roughly 3ms-1) can cause a shot deviation of a few inches at the target[7].

Nowhere, however, does the paper provide any evidence to support the assertion emboldened above. Various people will no doubt wish to cite "common sense", but that is not scientific, is it? The paper repeatedly uses the word "may" to describe the affect of neck tension and brass microstructure, to wit:

The microstructure variability after annealing will have consequences for shooting accuracy as one round may react differently to another.

This is not science. The author's assertion "will have consequences" is not supported by "may". I could go on, but you get the point. So for anyone to say that "proper" annealing is critical to accuracy, one must first describe exactly what "proper" means (this was the subject of the OP, as you may recall). Most of you are simply saying that "proper" means "with a machine which I bought, because you guys who are doing it with a drill are doing it wrong". What is the actual, measured affect of "doing it right" versus "doing it wrong" versus" doing it not at all"?

No one here has answered, and the cited paper, if it was an actual academic dissertation, should most certainly not have resulted in a passing grade.
I get the idea you're making posts here mainly be argumentative but I wonder if you're also missing the larger point. The dissertation you so dismissively put between quotation marks is indeed just that; a dissertation. Unless it is I who is missing the point and the paper is a complete hoax ginned up by some 9 year old kid in his Mom's basement. Somehow I doubt that, but I could be wrong.

You may not like it and you may disagree with the entire paper and you may even think that it doesn't deserve a passing grade; however, that doesn't make somehow less than a genuine dissertation. Neither is the information there worthless just because you fault them for not testing the results of the annealed cases by test firing loaded cartridges. They also didn't give details on how to make a Shoo-Fly pie either. Do you fault them there as well?

The idea was simply to take a look at what happens to cartridge brass when you anneal it. I think they did a decent job doing that. True, Mr. Stevenson didn't go the rifle range, but that wasn't part of his plan even though you seem to think he somehow short changed you. After all, the title wasn't "The Grand Unified Theory".

In fact there's quite a bit of information to be gleaned from the "dissertation", as you put it. The fact that cases annealed using the drill/torch method were inconsistently annealed is only one useful observation.

Furthermore, the anecdotal account presented in this thread by a fellow forum member who noticed increased precision after he began annealing doesn't make it non-factual just because he didn't have support from NASA.

Of course, not everything you find on the Internet is the God's Honest Truth; that's for sure. Nevertheless, there is often good information to be had here and elsewhere on the Net, even though sometimes it involves trying to pick the fly s**T out of the pepper.

While it is human nature to say that a product on which someone just spent a considerable sum of money is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is possible that the newly acquired equipment might actually be something good. Surely you aren't arguing that spending money on something makes it automatically bad, are you?

Additionally, some of us who shoot have been formally educated in the science of metallurgy and many of us anneal in a reasonably precise way. We we have also carefully measured and recorded the before-and-after effects of that annealing process as far as how it effects the precision of our rifles.

I wonder if being too quick to dismiss findings which are not full and complete scientific studies covering each and every aspect of the shooting sport isn't being a bit short sighted. Most of us are here to learn something.
 

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