Annealing - does this look right?

[bricktop]

My brother and I are trying out annealing with the rotating socket & torch method. I'm on some 3x fired 223 Rem Lapua brass (top), and he's doing Lapua 308 win brass (bottom), I think is 3x fired as well. We were curious if it looks like we're doing it right. We are in two different states and using different torches so all is not equal. My brass has been cleaned by tumbling and then running it in a drill shell-holder and steel wool on the neck and shoulder. Mine were flamed about 1/4" from the blue tip on the shoulder for about 8 seconds. I never saw any red and flamed them till they had a blue ring on the case near the shoulder.

His was ultrasonically cleaned. There are some orange marks on the shoulder of his that might be from the vinegar stains or something in the ultrasonic solution. His were in the flame for about 8-12 seconds. I think his torch has a bit more BTUs. He might have saw a tinge of red on a few, and they were run under the flame until getting the blue ring as well, albeit a bit further down. Factory lapua looks for be discolored about 3/8" - 1/2" down from the shoulder.

Do any of these look like they should? Did I underdo mine? Did he overdo his? Or are they both acceptable? Just differences from the state of the brass?

 

[Killshot]

A machine produces these results easily. If you're serious look into a Bench-Source or a Ken Light.

Brass varies from maker and lot. You can't go by looks alone to determine when the proper temp has been reached. It is difficult to tell from your pics but they look a little cooked.

 

[BoydAllen]

Here is a tip that I suggested to a friend that he incorporated in his annealing. Buy an battery powered electronic metronome. They are inexpensive, and by setting it to 60 beats per minute, you will be able to hear the seconds tick off. The advantage of a machine is that it has the case in the same position in the flame, for exactly the same amount of time. He uses a Hornady annealing kit to anneal .223 and .22-250 brass, with excellent results. Both his bullet seating force uniformity and accuracy have been improved. He sets his torch up so that it is sitting on the bottom of the tank, near the edge of the bench. This has the torch at an angle so that the flame overhangs the bench. The Hornady case holder is mounted in an cordess screwdriver, and there is a bucket of water on the floor. He knows that the water is not necessary, but I think that more than anything, it cushions the cases as they fall. He does his testing with the supplied Templaq, and once he has figured out how many seconds he needs to hold a neck in the flame, he anneals buy the ticking of the seconds. After the practice of doing several hundred cases, he can now dispense with the metronome, having gotten a "feel" for watching the annealing line progress down the case. I should also mention that he cleans his cases in a vibratory case cleaner, and their being brighter from that probably helps him see how the anneal is progressing.

 

[Cigarcop]

Just my 2ct but the top ones look OK, its not a great picture.. but the bottom ones look like they have been cooked and a little too far down on the body for my liking.

 

[bangnclang]

I hold mine to the flame for 8 seconds also.

I tried 11sec and thought that was too much!

ymmv

BnC

 

[GNERGY]

I found from watching a video a guy on Longrangehunting.com that suggested doing it in the dark, for the first couple of cases and watch till they just start to turn red. That is the right amount of heat. Count how long it takes, because in daylight you can't see the slight redness. Then you know how long to do it for. I do it with a socket and drill and it only takes about 4.5 seconds to do my 308's, till the case just starts to turn blueish purple. Just worry about the necks and not down the shoulder.
Tarey

 

[6BRinNZ]

Just a couple of comments. IMO the fact that the brass colour looks the same as factory is a feel good factor only, it doesn't mean you have used an appropriate temperature or that the case is safe.

If you haven't, I would use 450 templaq on the outside of the case to ensure that it doesn't melt too close to the base, use this with Boyd's idea of a metronome so that you get the timing right. You then don't have to coat every case, just some to setup the timing and the odd one to keep a check on things.

One of the points of annealing is to be consistent, otherwise neck tension and shoulder setback will vary. Once I started annealing I had to reduce the amount of setback in my FLZ die.

Going on the colour progression down the case - your brothers are all over the place, 450 templaq melts a bit further past where the colours end, on some of his cases he could be getting close to getting heat into the base of the case.

Also I reduce my time in the flame from summer to winter temps.

Finally - I would only anneal if I had a problem that annealing fixes, typically annealing plus consistency ( time and temp) is the fix not annealing on its own.

Good luck

 

[BoydAllen]

The fellow that has the most extensive credentials that I am aware of, in the area of cartridge case annealing, Ken Light, says that if you can see the neck glow, even in a darkened room, you have gotten it too hot. This is a link to the best article that has ever been written on the subject. I suggest that you read it carefully about three times and take notes.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[bricktop]

The fellow that has the most extensive credentials that I am aware of, in the area of cartridge case annealing, Ken Light, says that if you can see the neck glow, even in a darkened room, you have gotten it too hot. This is a link to the best article that has ever been written on the subject. I suggest that you read it carefully about three times and take notes.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Thank you Boyd and all the others for your input. It was my understanding as well that red = too late. I tried some of my extra 308 brass to see if I could get it to turn out similarly to the 223 brass. I've read that 6mmbr article and was kind of going off that to start with.

See here: http://youtu.be/yZLDj7KCYOQ (Sorry for the jiggling, it was hard to hold the camera and drill and still focus on the work).

I compared the looks of the self-annealed 308 to new factory 260 and they look nearly the same, although the factory brass has no size-marks on it. I'll probably pick up some tempilaq soon before doing it to any cases I care dearly about.

It is my intention to get some sort of automated annealer in the future, just don't have the money for it now. I was doing to more to prevent any split necks (although this is unlikely for 3x fired), and sort of for my own curiosity. I'm an EE by trade and was planning on designing an induction annealer too at some point, just because it is an interesting type of project. I think that would be a very repeatable way to do it, with an electronic timer of some sort.

 

[Juma]

Just my 2ct but the top ones look OK, its not a great picture.. but the bottom ones look like they have been cooked and a little too far down on the body for my liking.

I agree. Nothing wrong with a deep socket and DeWalt drill.If they resize smooth as butter you have got it right.If you mix your brass i.e. military spec with ordinary you will find the annealing varies i.e. the mil spec seems a bit harder and takes a tad longer. If you want the quenching safety ,fill the cases up to the bottom of the shoulder with water then anneal.

 

[MGYSGT]

I use the battery drill and a socket method. Mine only live in the flame for 6 seconds (for .223 and 6mmBR). Like any tool, I am sure each torch has it's own personality and a different flame temp. That's just what works for me.

Tom

 

[markm87]

The fellow that has the most extensive credentials that I am aware of, in the area of cartridge case annealing, Ken Light, says that if you can see the neck glow, even in a darkened room, you have gotten it too hot. This is a link to the best article that has ever been written on the subject. I suggest that you read it carefully about three times and take notes.
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

That's the standard I now anneal to. I'm cheap... so I'm counting the heat time by "one thousand, two one thousand", etc.

And brass is quite different. Lapua .308 takes much longer than a belted mag case with a thinner neck.

I use the fire couple of pieces to figure out my flame time, and go from there.

 

[wapiti25]

Just did some 223 in the drill. Blue inerflame was aimed at the shoulder surface for 5-6 sec and that was good.

 

[BoydAllen]

It looks like several of you are right on track with your annealing. Now to improve your uniformity you might invest in one of these.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=electric+metronome&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3931030881&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6555614221463552880&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_64rnxlrlo6_b

 

[Cigarcop]

It looks like several of you are right on track with your annealing. Now to improve your uniformity you might invest in one of these.
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=electric+metronome&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=3931030881&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6555614221463552880&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_64rnxlrlo6_b

I would agree with this....to me it honestly doesn't matter how you get it done....what is impotant is that they are all done uniform to each other and not overdone.

 

[DougMH]

They're obviously inconsistent (heat rings travelling down the case neck unevenly). Some of them appear to be going too far down also.

I do my annealing by hand. When I first started out, I bought a "tempil" stick rated at 650 deg F. I have a case holder for my drill and I'd put the rotating case in the flame for 1 second and test, 2 seconds and test, etc. (each time with a cold case). The "tempil" stick melted after 6 seconds (I just counted 1 one-thousand, 2 one-thousand, etc.). I put the point of a 1.5" flame right on the case neck as close as I can to the case mouth while it rotates. This way the heat is evenly applied and runs down the neck, but not much farther. My heat ring is very consistently at the same point it is on new Lapua brass.

I use Lapua cases up to 4 times for matches before discarding. I then load it up one last time with cheap bullets for "The Revolution to Come."