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Annealing: does it “expire”?

Debating if the effects of annealing brass expire or not is completely irrelevant. All that matters is that the brass has been annealed recently and it is headspacing the same and neck tension is consistent when sized in the die. You need to measure the headspacing on the cases after sizing and pay attention to neck tension when seating bullets. If it's erratic, they need to be annealed then sized and measured again. That simple.

If you want to shoot old factory ammo, you do so at your own risk. I won't do it. Won't shoot ANY factory ammo for that matter.
 
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It is possible that seating will be ok and your cases will split on firing. I had a batch of Rem .221 Fireball cases do that.
Then again not everyone measures the seating force for everything they load. Not everyone uses the loading techniques of your small world. So no it is not irrelevant to know that brass changes over time.

Debating if the effects of annealing brass expire or not is completely irrelevant. All that matters is that the brass is headspacing the same and neck tension is consistent when sized in the die. Whether it was annealed 1 day ago or 10 years ago, you need to measure the headspacing on the cases after sizing and pay attention to neck tension when seating bullets. If it's erratic, they need to be annealed then sized and measured again. That simple.
 
I hate to disagree, but age cracking of brass is real if it is in a state of stress, like that with a resistance fitted bullet in it. I have had brass crack as the expander was pulled through it leaving the entire neck attached to the expander, also had the neck come off with the bullet after pulling bullets of considerable age, the one’s I didn’t pull cracked upon firing. Have seen both happen with clean and corroded brass cases. Verdi Gris is a dead giveaway on corroded cases.
Static aging does NOT occur in bar stock/tube/plate that is stored, even in the elements.

Please enlighten me if I’m wrong.

Cheers.
:)
 
Bet all you want. The fact is they were new old stock cases in the original Remington boxes.The case necks were uniform thickness.
Remington is not horrible. That is just your dodging reflex.
I have owned way more brass than you do. I know for a fact that condition is not common with Remington brass. The only batch of cases I have seen like that were 100 Norma cases bought in the 1970s. As I said I don't live in your little world of a few rifles that are wet nursed. I see a much wider array of brass from many sources. It is relevant that brass does change over time. Apparently you know that since you admit to annealing cases.

Quote from "ireload2":
It is possible that seating will be ok and your cases will split on firing. I had a batch of Rem .221 Fireball cases do that.
Then again not everyone measures the seating force for everything they load. Not everyone uses the loading techniques of your small world. So no it is not irrelevant to know that brass changes over time. End quote;


I'd bet money you hadn't annealed them recently either, or ever. Of course you could have just got a bad batch of brass. Happens to everyone. Remington is horrible for having thin spots on one side of the case walls. But if you would have been checking your neck wall thickness with a concentricity gauge properly, you would have caught that. Just keep haphazardly loading cases like you do in "your world" and you'll keep having stuff like that happen to you.
 
Bet all you want. The fact is they were new old stock cases in the original Remington boxes.The case necks were uniform thickness.
Remington is not horrible. That is just your dodging reflex.
I have owned way more brass than you do. I know for a fact that condition is not common with Remington brass. The only batch of cases I have seen like that were 100 Norma cases bought in the 1970s. As I said I don't live in your little world of a few rifles that are wet nursed. I see a much wider array of brass from many sources. It is relevant that brass does change over time. Apparently you know that since you admit to annealing cases.

Now I see why I had you on my IGNORE list. Been so long I had forgotten why I put you on there. Never should have looked at your reply. Just gonna put you right back on that list where you belong so no sense in replying ro me anymore. Wont even see it. Take care little buddy ;)
 
This is the confusion I was talking about. Old cracking brass is not the same as age hardening. It's a totally different thing. Corrosion causing cracks in stressed metal is in no way a reversal of the annealing process.
 


"Ohh that's no good..... 1945??? that's old outdated information. New tech has supplanted all those old tests and besides they didn't even have the instruments we use today."

I live in the world of reinforced concrete construction.

And right now, this day, only 3 of over 70 structural Building Inspectors in this area allow the use of Calcium Chloride in my admixtures. Some idiotstick inspector about fifteen yrs ago decided in his infinite rednekkid "wisdom" that "calcium is salt and salt rusts metal and therefore putting salt in the concrete will rot off all the rebar"

And some idiotstick fresh-of-the-schoolbus licensed engineer backed him up......

And then another....... (I swear, they're like budding ballisticians!) ...... and now NATIONWIDE, "everybody knows" that "Calcium rots rebar" and every concrete company on the planet has to offer 'Daraset' or similar "non-chloride accelerator" at 5 times the cost.

So I'm forced to carry books on the subjects, books and articles like 'CRSI Design Handbook' (1952) or 'CBD-165. Calcium Chloride in Concrete' (1974) and NOW the idiotsticks snivel and whine that "those are OLD studies!!"

Like one a' these days helium might just start migrating up the periodic table because "it rises ya' know!"

It daily amazes me that the everyday, normal human truly believes that facts and truth wear out over time!

Thank You riflewoman
 
Thank you for all the replies guys...
So to sum it up, do most of us agree that it IS ok to anneal batches of brass to be sized at a later date, without losing the annealing effectiveness?
 
Guys, During my time in the Marine Corps, my job was primarily Ammo. In the 24 years I did this job, I never saw a unfired cartridge with a split neck. During the 80's we were still using .50 ammo made for WWII. 40+ years in storage and still no change. That's not to say a factory couldn't mess up the annealing process along the line. Just never saw it myself.
 
This really funny, if you a certain brand of anneal you can do it one way and those that never seen a split neck. New Lapua 6 BR. brass trying to fire form to a Dasher and it split 9 out of 10 at neck shoulder. I contacted the rep. from Lapua and they said they would replace them.......... 8 years?? must be on a slow boat. I annealed the brass on an old time unit that I guess doesn't work, I read . All the ones I annealed fire formed without a crack. Tried a couple to see if was a fluke and they cracked. Just because they look like they are annealed, doesn't make them right.
I did the rest of the lot and went on to set a lot of records with them, and they were annealed every time. After a 100+ firings on the brass it was still good, and I don't even have a degree to tell you why it works....... I load in a controlled environment and then store it in an old military ammo can so the air stays the same as it is loaded in. Get out at the match. ........ jim
 
This really funny, if you a certain brand of anneal you can do it one way and those that never seen a split neck. New Lapua 6 BR. brass trying to fire form to a Dasher and it split 9 out of 10 at neck shoulder. I contacted the rep. from Lapua and they said they would replace them.......... 8 years?? must be on a slow boat. I annealed the brass on an old time unit that I guess doesn't work, I read . All the ones I annealed fire formed without a crack. Tried a couple to see if was a fluke and they cracked. Just because they look like they are annealed, doesn't make them right.
I did the rest of the lot and went on to set a lot of records with them, and they were annealed every time. After a 100+ firings on the brass it was still good, and I don't even have a degree to tell you why it works....... I load in a controlled environment and then store it in an old military ammo can so the air stays the same as it is loaded in. Get out at the match. ........ jim

Factory annealing: Just because the shoulders change color doesn't mean they were annealed enough for a large change in shape. 750F for a couple seconds is close to no anneal. The cases are not made for the purpose of fire forming. You did the correct thing annealing before FF. I annealed 50 6BR cases to FF to 6BRX, no cracks. I wonder why the factory even anneals as the last operation. They should accept a bullet without cracking. Do they assume they will be reloaded so they anneal for us?

Added later:
Maybe the factory anneal after the case is fully formed is to reduce stress which would encourage stress corrosion failure in storage? Better for long term storage. I was in the Army 1964-66. At the range we fired ammo that was at least 20 YO. They use the newer lots for combat. Old lots for practice.
 
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Brass that has seated bullets behaves differently than does brass that is not loaded.

I have never seen empty brass crack on its own but it may crack when it is fired the first time.
It is common for loaded ammo to age over decades and have the necks crack in storage or crack when fired.

A few years ago I read an article about manufacturing smokeless powder. I will post a link if I find it. Large amounts of nitric and sulpiric acid are used in the manufacture of smokeless powder. Also vary large volumes of water are used to remove unreacted acid. They try to get the residual acid below something like 2% if I remember correctly. There is a special way to measure residual acid. The higher the residual acid the more likely the powder will deteriorate with time. Don't remember if the if the article mentioned deteriorated powder corroding brass. In other words if a loaded round has a lot of residual acid it's sealed in the cartridge in your protective ammo can. It's been many years but I remember opening a few cans of powder it had a acrid odor and red dust in the paper container. I have not seen bad powder in a long time.
 
"Many of use believe"

Doesn't matter what you believe. It only matters what is true. Many still think the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon and there are aliens stored at Area 51.
Tell me it ain't so , your kiddin right?
 

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