Annealed brass grows faster?

[thefitter]

Does anyone feel that annealed brass grows faster because it's softer? Would a growth of .01 in length after one firing seem nuts to you?

 

[gary0529]

No to #1

Yes to #2
Did not mean to appear as a smart-- but not much I have seen to corroborate your thoughts.

It does,however, make my brass last a whole lot longer.

Gary

 

[markm87]

Not sure.... there is something about Mil 5.56 brass that makes it stretch monumentally on its original firing.... Granted it's a hot load, but I can't believe that's the only factor.

 

[Shynloco]

Gary0529,
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask you how annealing makes your brass last longer? I mean have you compared how many firings you get out of brass before annealing and how much you get after annealing? I'm not trying to sound like I oppose annealing or don't believe it works. But from all my readings of comments, I have been led to believe that the reason for annealing is to allow for the brass to better form the chamber of your rifle on a consistent basis and hence the easier to control the accuracy of your loads. Personally, I don't anneal my brass because I can't afford one of those nifty, fancy annealing machines that anneal for you and I don't trust myself to be able to get each piece annealed the same when I do it the poor man's way. The process is obviously not difficult. But I honestly don't trust myself to do it the same each and every time. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and I'm an accuracy freak even though I don't compete. BTW, I'm on my 47th go around with loading a group of 6mm Lapua brass and just split out my first neck. And this brass has never been annealed. And that didn't happen from excessive firing or hardened brass. Rather I pulled a bullet and jerked it sideway that split the neck. Besides, I am aware that the serious competitors anneal after each shooting of their brass and the last thing they are concerned about is how long the brass lasts. For them, its all about accuracy and making sure the brass expands to fill the chamber the same way each and every time they fire their rounds. Besides such actions as annealing and Full Length Sizing that those guys do, "WORKS" brass more than not doing either of those actions and "working" brass shortens brass life and not increases it. SO I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that annealing extends brass life. And like you, not trying to be a wise guy or anything else. Thx.

 

[spclark]

0.010" case growth seems a bit much from one firing. What cartridge? How many times fired? Bolt gun or autoloader?

My guess would be it's not from being annealed, rather from being over-sized: excessive shoulder set-back leads to excessive head space, a known cause of case stretch.

Annealing may make such a situation worse but in my experience helps with more uniform shoulder bump from case to case when the sizing die is set up for minimum bump.

 

[thefitter]

0.010" case growth seems a bit much from one firing. What cartridge? How many times fired? Bolt gun or autoloader?

My guess would be it's not from being annealed, rather from being over-sized: excessive shoulder set-back leads to excessive head space, a known cause of case stretch.

Annealing may make such a situation worse but in my experience helps with more uniform shoulder bump from case to case when the sizing die is set up for minimum bump.

.308

Probably at least 6 firings

Bolt gun

I FL size and bump shoulder .002 each time.

 

[spclark]

What brand of brass? How much dimensional difference is there between a new case and one that's been fired one time? You run new cases thru your sizing die before first use?

I anneal all my brass (308, several 6mm's, 260 & other 6.5's) & have never seen more than maybe 0.003" case growth after one firing.

You don't anneal down past maybe more than 0.125" below the shoulder (or less) by chance? What kind of setup used for annealing? Use temp indicator or just case appearance?

Trying to suss out possible reasons by long distance is tricky enough, that's why all the questions. Were I standing behind you I'd likely be able to pick this stuff up on my own....

 

[thefitter]

What brand of brass? LAPUA How much dimensional difference is there between a new case and one that's been fired one time? Not sure. You run new cases thru your sizing die before first use? Yes

I anneal all my brass (308, several 6mm's, 260 & other 6.5's) & have never seen more than maybe 0.003" case growth after one firing.

You don't anneal down past maybe more than 0.125" below the shoulder (or less) by chance? No What kind of setup used for annealing? By hand with MAP. Use temp indicator or just case appearance? Dark room, 8 seconds and color.

Trying to suss out possible reasons by long distance is tricky enough, that's why all the questions. Were I standing behind you I'd likely be able to pick this stuff up on my own....

Thanks

 

[markm87]

I don't trust myself to be able to get each piece annealed the same when I do it the poor man's way. The process is obviously not difficult. But I honestly don't trust myself to do it the same each and every time. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and I'm an accuracy freak even though I don't compete.

I do it the poor man's way and I can tell you that consistency in neck tension is much better than NOT annealing at all... even with the inconsitency of doing it by hand.

In my experience, poor man annealing does more good than harm. I can feel it in my bullet seating.

 

[bozo699]

Gary0529,
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask you how annealing makes your brass last longer? I mean have you compared how many firings you get out of brass before annealing and how much you get after annealing? I'm not trying to sound like I oppose annealing or don't believe it works. But from all my readings of comments, I have been led to believe that the reason for annealing is to allow for the brass to better form the chamber of your rifle on a consistent basis and hence the easier to control the accuracy of your loads. Personally, I don't anneal my brass because I can't afford one of those nifty, fancy annealing machines that anneal for you and I don't trust myself to be able to get each piece annealed the same when I do it the poor man's way. The process is obviously not difficult. But I honestly don't trust myself to do it the same each and every time. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and I'm an accuracy freak even though I don't compete. BTW, I'm on my 47th go around with loading a group of 6mm Lapua brass and just split out my first neck. And this brass has never been annealed. And that didn't happen from excessive firing or hardened brass. Rather I pulled a bullet and jerked it sideway that split the neck. Besides, I am aware that the serious competitors anneal after each shooting of their brass and the last thing they are concerned about is how long the brass lasts. For them, its all about accuracy and making sure the brass expands to fill the chamber the same way each and every time they fire their rounds. Besides such actions as annealing and Full Length Sizing that those guys do, "WORKS" brass more than not doing either of those actions and "working" brass shortens brass life and not increases it. SO I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that annealing extends brass life. And like you, not trying to be a wise guy or anything else. Thx.

Shynloco,
I agree with your post except the last part,....I am not a serious competitor but I seriously compete and I do care how long my brass lasts, not because of the cost, I would gladly by new brass for every relay if that was what it took to win I care because of all the work you have invested in each case, I have not done much annealing either as I have the Ken Light annealer but only one wheel and haven't got around to getting the two I need and I agree with you that doing it in a socket is just not a very consistent or scientific way of doing it. Also neck sizing is not consistent and the key to accuracy is consistency as you stated so most F/L size but it does not over work your brass unless you don't have a die that matches your chamber and serious competitors have dies that match there chambers, they push the shoulder back .001 the base about the same and just below the shoulder maybe .0002 or so, I did all my load work with one piece of brass for my 6ppc and F/L sized it each time with my Harrells varibase die, I am on my 41st firing with that piece of brass, most all with hot loads and no signs of being wore out yet. I would agree with you if competitors used RCBS f/l dies but I haven't seen many that do. I would have guessed the op was bumping the shoulders back to far but he said .002 so my second guess is 8 seconds and Map gas is way overkill! JMHO because .010 is a lot of stretch for sure.
Wayne.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Fitter - after annealing I found I needed to adjust my FLS amount...basically if I kept my pre-annealing sizing dimensions I was oversizing my brass by .002 - .003". Just putting it out there in case you haven't rechecked since bringing annealing into the process.

 

[thefitter]

Gary0529,
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask you how annealing makes your brass last longer? I mean have you compared how many firings you get out of brass before annealing and how much you get after annealing? I'm not trying to sound like I oppose annealing or don't believe it works. But from all my readings of comments, I have been led to believe that the reason for annealing is to allow for the brass to better form the chamber of your rifle on a consistent basis and hence the easier to control the accuracy of your loads. Personally, I don't anneal my brass because I can't afford one of those nifty, fancy annealing machines that anneal for you and I don't trust myself to be able to get each piece annealed the same when I do it the poor man's way. The process is obviously not difficult. But I honestly don't trust myself to do it the same each and every time. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and I'm an accuracy freak even though I don't compete. BTW, I'm on my 47th go around with loading a group of 6mm Lapua brass and just split out my first neck. And this brass has never been annealed. And that didn't happen from excessive firing or hardened brass. Rather I pulled a bullet and jerked it sideway that split the neck. Besides, I am aware that the serious competitors anneal after each shooting of their brass and the last thing they are concerned about is how long the brass lasts. For them, its all about accuracy and making sure the brass expands to fill the chamber the same way each and every time they fire their rounds. Besides such actions as annealing and Full Length Sizing that those guys do, "WORKS" brass more than not doing either of those actions and "working" brass shortens brass life and not increases it. SO I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that annealing extends brass life. And like you, not trying to be a wise guy or anything else. Thx.

Shynloco,
I agree with your post except the last part,....I am not a serious competitor but I seriously compete and I do care how long my brass lasts, not because of the cost, I would gladly by new brass for every relay if that was what it took to win I care because of all the work you have invested in each case, I have not done much annealing either as I have the Ken Light annealer but only one wheel and haven't got around to getting the two I need and I agree with you that doing it in a socket is just not a very consistent or scientific way of doing it. Also neck sizing is not consistent and the key to accuracy is consistency as you stated so most F/L size but it does not over work your brass unless you don't have a die that matches your chamber and serious competitors have dies that match there chambers, they push the shoulder back .001 the base about the same and just below the shoulder maybe .0002 or so, I did all my load work with one piece of brass for my 6ppc and F/L sized it each time with my Harrells varibase die, I am on my 41st firing with that piece of brass, most all with hot loads and no signs of being wore out yet. I would agree with you if competitors used RCBS f/l dies but I haven't seen many that do. I would have guessed the op was bumping the shoulders back to far but he said .002 so my second guess is 8 seconds and Map gas is way overkill! JMHO because .010 is a lot of stretch for sure.
Wayne.

I don't think 8 seconds with MAP is over kill because I hold the case in my hand.

 

[thefitter]

Gary0529,
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute and ask you how annealing makes your brass last longer? I mean have you compared how many firings you get out of brass before annealing and how much you get after annealing? I'm not trying to sound like I oppose annealing or don't believe it works. But from all my readings of comments, I have been led to believe that the reason for annealing is to allow for the brass to better form the chamber of your rifle on a consistent basis and hence the easier to control the accuracy of your loads. Personally, I don't anneal my brass because I can't afford one of those nifty, fancy annealing machines that anneal for you and I don't trust myself to be able to get each piece annealed the same when I do it the poor man's way. The process is obviously not difficult. But I honestly don't trust myself to do it the same each and every time. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and I'm an accuracy freak even though I don't compete. BTW, I'm on my 47th go around with loading a group of 6mm Lapua brass and just split out my first neck. And this brass has never been annealed. And that didn't happen from excessive firing or hardened brass. Rather I pulled a bullet and jerked it sideway that split the neck. Besides, I am aware that the serious competitors anneal after each shooting of their brass and the last thing they are concerned about is how long the brass lasts. For them, its all about accuracy and making sure the brass expands to fill the chamber the same way each and every time they fire their rounds. Besides such actions as annealing and Full Length Sizing that those guys do, "WORKS" brass more than not doing either of those actions and "working" brass shortens brass life and not increases it. SO I'm curious how you came to your conclusion that annealing extends brass life. And like you, not trying to be a wise guy or anything else. Thx.

Shynloco,
I agree with your post except the last part,....I am not a serious competitor but I seriously compete and I do care how long my brass lasts, not because of the cost, I would gladly by new brass for every relay if that was what it took to win I care because of all the work you have invested in each case, I have not done much annealing either as I have the Ken Light annealer but only one wheel and haven't got around to getting the two I need and I agree with you that doing it in a socket is just not a very consistent or scientific way of doing it. Also neck sizing is not consistent and the key to accuracy is consistency as you stated so most F/L size but it does not over work your brass unless you don't have a die that matches your chamber and serious competitors have dies that match there chambers, they push the shoulder back .001 the base about the same and just below the shoulder maybe .0002 or so, I did all my load work with one piece of brass for my 6ppc and F/L sized it each time with my Harrells varibase die, I am on my 41st firing with that piece of brass, most all with hot loads and no signs of being wore out yet. I would agree with you if competitors used RCBS f/l dies but I haven't seen many that do. I would have guessed the op was bumping the shoulders back to far but he said .002 so my second guess is 8 seconds and Map gas is way overkill! JMHO because .010 is a lot of stretch for sure.
Wayne.

I don't think 8 seconds with MAP is over kill because I hold the case in my hand.

I did not notice any change in the shoulder bump, but I did notice that with a .336 bushing I get .335

But my seating tension is way more consistent since annealing every time.

Thanks

 

[bozo699]

Well I guess if you can hold them by hand then that's out as well, hope you get it figured out partner. By the way I find most bushing's not to be the exact size as stated, are you measuring with a caliper or mic that can make a difference as well.
Wayne.

 

[thefitter]

Actually I believe the bushing is right on because it gives me .336 if I don't anneal. I think the brass just moves easier when I anneal so I get .335...?

 

[MrMajestic]

Actually I believe the bushing is right on because it gives me .336 if I don't anneal. I think the brass just moves easier when I anneal so I get .335...?

Annealing reduces memory/spring back hence the size difference.

 

[spclark]

I think you're heating your cases too much. 8 sec. in a MAP flame has got to raise temp considerably farther than the 6 - 7 sec. I use with propane, also with Lapua 308 and Palma brass.

In a lighted room I spin cases placed in a deep socket, the blue inner flame just off the neck / shoulder junction. I see a color / texture change after this inteval which becomes more obvious once cases are out of the flame. I used the temp paints early on when working out the set-up I use & know now what I see is sufficient to melt 750F while 800F stays solid.

Overheating brass will cause the zinc component to oxidize / vaporize. That you can hold cases in your fingers might be giving you a false sense of confidence if heat transfer isn't fast enough to burn your fingers despite the case necks being overheated.

 

[spclark]

Some numbers to consider:

MAPP gas burned in air: 5,300F
Propane in air: 3,400F

Zinc melting point: 787F; boiling point: 907F
Copper mp: 1,984F; bp: 4,643F

Certainly MAPP can be used but as with acetylene it's probably overkill and generally more costly than propane. If you're equipped to determine the proper time-in-process and run cases consistently it will save you some time.

Cartridge brass anneals starting at 800F. Air cooling or water quench work equally well.

 

[thefitter]

Some numbers to consider:

MAPP gas burned in air: 5,300F
Propane in air: 3,400F

Zinc melting point: 787F; boiling point: 907F
Copper mp: 1,984F; bp: 4,643F

Certainly MAPP can be used but as with acetylene it's probably overkill and generally more costly than propane. If you're equipped to determine the proper time-in-process and run cases consistently it will save you some time.

Cartridge brass anneals starting at 800F. Air cooling or water quench work equally well.

I appreciate your input however I don't think I'm over doing it. But I will run a test tonight with temp indicator.

Now for the sake of argument and because I'm open minded lets say that I am over annealing the necks. How could that cause so much growth between firings. AND...how long can this go on? I'm bound to run out of brass!