Anneal before or after sizing?(added-Over annealing how hot's too hot?)

[JHardy]

Re: Anneal before or after sizing?

ALWAYS anneal BEFORE you size the case. This way, you get the benefit of the annealing process and have less spring back of the necks -- which means more uniform neck tension (bullet pull), which means more uniform ES/SD, which means more uniform vertical at 1000 yards.

Jim Hardy

 

[archerross]

Re: Anneal before or after sizing?

...I have more than I will admit to that I junked by over annealing.

I just started annealing a couple months ago and have done maybe 300 cases. I understand the concept of "over annealing", how do you identify it?

 

[Kenny474]

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Archerross, read the above article and it will clarify a lot of things. Towards the bottom is the section on testing the brass before and after annealing. The article can explain the procedure better than I can.

 

[archerross]

That was the first article I read about annealing. Still, how did you determine that you needed to junk the cases? Was it because you heated the neck to a dull red? Did you do the vice grip test and determine there was no spring and thus over-annealed? What part of your case did you over-anneal in which you needed to junk it? If you over-annealed the neck, so what? According to that article there are no safety concerns with over-annealing the neck. Brass life is extended, which is the primary reason for annealing, yes?

I simply want to know how to determine if I have over-annealed my brass. Do I need to do the vice grip test on every piece?!

 

[RonAKA]

This link gives a cross reference to temperature from appearance. Just visible red glow in the dark -- 750 deg. F.

http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Temperature_when_metal_glows_red

 

[Kenny474]

I made my own rotary annealing system, and when adjusting it I had overheated a bunch of brass. It was cooked from below the shoulder to the very top of the neck. I had some of it glowing a bit more than faint red, and I am not into chancing stuff like that. All my test brass was stuff I had bought for 5 cents a piece from the used brass bucket at the local shop, as I had planned on ruining a bunch getting my rig to work right.

I had also done the vice grip test as well when getting close to the right temperature, and whatever didn't pass got scrapped. Once I got it dialed in and working properly, I began to use my good brass. That way I wasn't junking stuff I paid good money for. I did use some of the used brass for plinking loads after giving it a thorough inspection.

Also, when you over-anneal brass it loses it's springy-ness (I can't think of a proper term) which I don't feel is very good for consistent neck tension. And from a safety standpoint, I would rather throw out questionable brass than take a chance anyway. I guess that is a matter of preference, but I will not chamber anything of questionable quality in any of my guns. I only have one life, and brass is cheap.

As far as checking every piece, no probably not. If you have a consistent system that will heat for a consistent amount of time, once you get it working it should provide consistent results. Or use 750 degree tempilaq, as you can get good results that way as well. I used it with good results before I built my machine, and also used it to help dial in my machine as well. Though getting a home made annealing machine set up properly was more of a pain than I had anticipated, though mostly my own fault. Hence my pile of useless brass. My main issue was an inconsistent speed control(light dimmer). Once replaced with a quality unit, it was much easier.

I am far from an expert in these matters, and can only comment on my results and techniques.

 

[RonAKA]

Just my thinking out loud, and forgetting most of what I learned in metallurgy classes, but here it is...

Basically with brass you anneal or you don't. With steel it is common to quench and temper. You quench to give the material high yield but at the price of making the material brittle. When you temper by heating to an intermediate temperature, you give up some strength but gain toughness.

Brass is a bit different. It would be very difficult to partially anneal, and I sure have not seen any information with respect to cartridge brass on how to do that on a consistent basis. I would suggest you anneal or you don't, and suspect a lot of handloaders think they are annealing but they are not. Too low a temperature for too short a time in many cases.

On over annealing, this may be better described as dezincification, and in turn is caused by oxidation and too high a temperature. To some degree if you can continuously keep the neck and shoulder in the flame just beyond the blue part, you avoid oxidation of the brass, as there should be no oxygen in that part of the flame. And if you keep the temperature in the 800F range this helps as well. And, yes if you dezincify the brass it is toast. No recovery.

On the other hand if you fully anneal, which I would suggest is a good thing, if restricted only to the neck and shoulder, and only done every 7 loads or so, all material properties are retained, and strength will be gained back as you work the brass.

 

[Kenny474]

Ron, I appreciate your info on the subject. I also appreciate you clarifying the results of over annealing. I am not an expert, and just don't like to take chances. I took a lot of time to perfect my process, as I didn't want to under anneal, and didn't want to go too far either. I think I am getting good results(as well my father does), and my brass is definitely softer than before, while retaining it's spring.

Any other info you have will be well received, as I am always down to learn.

Thanks again for some of the clarification. It is appreciated.
Kenny

Anyway, if anyone is curious, my "annealing machine" is similar to the other rotary machines and is run by a rotisserie motor. The top rotating disc is 3/4" aluminum, and the bottom is 1" nylon with a 1/4" raised section with rubber surround to rotate cases, on 8" legs. Though it is far from the refined stuff you can purchase, it does well for my $60 investment. I would post a pic, but don't want to blow you guys away with my amazing engineering skillz. 8) Or lack of!

 

[Tozguy]

I have been looking into annealing 'properly' for a while now and this thread is very interesting. I have been annealing 357 mag and 44 mag handgun cases for years solely to extend the life of the cases. It never was obvious to me whether the brass was actually annealed properly and just how much more life was added to the cases (never did a controlled test to compare the life of annealed versus non-annealed cases).
For 223 and 6br cases, neck sizing only and using moderate loads, after many more loadings per case than with handgun cases I have yet to find a split case. The cases get body bumped every 5-6 reload. Hence the question of why and when should these cases be annealed.
With what I have read here and elsewhere, the process of annealing is probably one of the most difficult reloading processes to master. Getting accurate temperature measurement seems to be the crux of the matter. Considering how much brass is ruined in learning to anneal and how uncertain the results are for many of us, I suspect that there may be more variation in neck tension after annealing than before. The theory involved is logical but anyone who can actually anneal properly and consistently has really accomplished something.

 

[Scott Harris]

Thought I'd share my experience in the interest of helping others:

I have been struggling with the "proper" part of annealing for some time now. I've read all the articles and even spoke with Ken Light on the subject. Owned a Ken Light and sold it because I had difficulty adjusting the flames for consistency. I now own Ballistic Edge Manuf. Triple torch model and feel this is is big step up because I can hit the brass from 3 sides all at once and precisely control the amount of time it stays under heat. However, I STILL struggle to find the line between properly annealed and over-annealed. I tried templistik and that didn't work because the chalk won't stay on the case. I finally received some 750 degree Templilaq and I'm hopeful this will work much better. plan on painting inside the case neck and using that to set up the machine. Annealing is a good concept, but if you can't do it consistently and correctly, then it'll do more harm than good....or nothing at all.

 

[Kenny474]

Scotharr, one of the infrared thermometers is handy for finding how hot the brass is getting, but you have to check it as soon as it comes out of the flame. The tempilaq is helpful as well, and you have already found tempilstik doesn't work, which I had trouble with as well.

I got my thermometer for around $40 from Auto Zone and it is just as accurate as my uncle's $150 unit he uses to check tire temps on his race car.

 

[necchi]

The tempilaq is helpful as well, and you have already found tempilstik doesn't work, which I had trouble with as well.

I might have said this earlier, but I'll add myself as a 3rd person that had no luck with the Templistik. As said the waxy crayon stuff doesn't stay on the brass neck nad what little does is too hard to read if it actually melts.
It's really tuff to describe "on-line" the proper technique. Too many variables,,torch tips, flame size,,,,
If you do what's called "Dull-red", there is no change to the shoulder color like new Laupa or LC Mil brass ???
It's a learning curve, that's fer sure.