anlge of target please help

[wolf]

when you zero your rifle at a a target board say 100 yards away and the rounds hit a half inch sqare corresponding with the centre of your cross hairs and you say your rifle is zeroed.now if the target board was at a slight angle to you and you aimed at the same sqare would you rounds then strike slightly to the left or right depending on which way the target was angled.really stuck on this one.thanks

 

[Cheechako]

jack

I hope this isn't a joke or a trick question because I'm going to bite.

If your scope is zeroed the bullet will,should) hit wherever you hold the cross hair. If the target is at an extreme angle the hole will be elongated but it will,should) be centered wherever you held.

Ray

 

[Cheaha]

jack

I hope this isn't a joke or a trick question because I'm going to bite.

If your scope is zeroed the bullet will,should) hit wherever you hold the cross hair. If the target is at an extreme angle the hole will be elongated but it will,should) be centered wherever you held.

Ray

That makes sense to me for slightly off-square targets. If your targets are higher or lower than your shooting position then your sight-in could be off when shooting level targets though we're picking nits here.

 

[mmcauliffe]

Do you mean if for example that you are shooting from station #1 and you somehow end up shooting at station #3 say approx 5-6 feet over to one side but the target is still "square" to the firing line?

OR

Do you mean your target stand is in line with the station you are shooting from,station #1) but not square to the firing line?

Either away, and I'm just getting into "some-what-serious" target shooting, simple trig tells you that the difference in distance is so miniscule...

 

[mikecr]

Yes it would.
Your square becomes a rectangle as it's aspect changes, narrowing in width. This reduced horizontal area would appear more sensitive in horizontal dispersion when viewed straight on.

Any grouping meaasurement would then be accurate,in horizontal) only while that aspect is taken into account.

 

[Cheechako]

mike, mike, mike

Think about what you are saying. If you sight it in to punch out a bullet sized dot and the turn the target at an angle you will still punch out that dot even though it would now be an oval.

Ray

 

[rstreich]

I think that's exactly what Mike said, Ray.

 

[Cheechako]

Maybe I misread. If so I apologize.

I thought that Jack asked, "if the target board was at a slight angle to you and you aimed at the same sqare would you rounds then strike slightly to the left or right. . ."

My answer was no, they would strike exactly where you held the crosshairs.

I admit that mike's post was a little confusing for me but I read it as, "yes it would."

Ray

 

[mikecr]

As viewed from the bench, What you shoot appears just that regardless of target aspect. But when you walk up and look at the target in a perpendicular aspect, the holes will be in a different location than you thought from the bench,viewing an angled target).

Now, let's figure out where bullet holes print on underwater targets...

 

[Cheechako]

Mike

Eliminate the horizontal line. Your target is a single vertical line. You sight in to hit that line exactly. Now, turn the target at an angle and shoot at the line again. Are you saying that the holes will be to the left or right of that line?? Doesn't make snese to me.

Ray

 

[mikecr]

If you hit the line, thats what you did.
But unless you exactly center it, yes they will.

Let's say you're shooting groups on a perpendicular target as illustrated above,not PERFECTLY centered). Now you pick up your gear, move 10 benches right, and shoot at the same target board. You would find when you walk down and look at the targets straight-on, your grouping not only moves toward your shooting aspect, but spreads some in horizontal.

Like this,exagerated) illustration:

 

[Cheechako]

mike

Sorry mike but I'm still unconvinced, and skeptical.

Are you a Benchrest shooter? I am and I'm here to tell you that your rifle had better be capable of splitting that vertical line or you won't be getting many of those fake wood trophies. Benchrest shooters typically "hold off" half a bullet hole or less when shooting groups and Score shooters have an X ring 1/8" in diameter to hit every time.

If my rifle is sighted to exactly point of aim it will do that regardless of which target I am shooting at, even one that may be 5 or 6 benches down the line.

If I do my part, that is.

I cannot understand how your target will look any different when you walk down to it than it did when viewed thru your scope. The hole is where it is, no matter how you look at it.

I'll admit that my military mind does not comprehend your term "target aspect". Take away any lines, squares, bullseyes, etc from that target and it will look the same from any angle. Shoot one shot on that blank target. Using that as your aiming point, shoot another and it will still be one hole,maybe a little bigger, but still one hole).

JMHO

Ray

 

[mikecr]

I'm not a benchrest competitor. Nor have I ever shot at a target from such a wide angle. Therefore, it's a reach to qualify my perspectives for you.

Look at the targets in top view.
The angled target, provides a reduced horizontal front,aspect). Horizontal deviations, however small, will be amplified on this target compared to a perpendicular target. Not as viewed from the shooting position, but as seen without the angle.

 

[alf]

The bullet point should still be in the optical center of the target regardless of how you turn it. The hole may be oval, biased toward the cant of the target, but I can't see how it would shift impact. Why shoot at an angled target anyway? Al.

 

[mikecr]

For one thing, no matter how good you shoot, you are not likely -perfectly centered.

Take a Mag-Lite and focus a nice small circle on an index card or something,tape a pencil to it for axis, and get someone to help you). Now as you turn the card, creating angle, you will see the circle spread out in the horizontal, AS VIEWED PERPENDICULAR TO THE CARD.
The circle emitted has not changed, but it's reflection certainly has.
Your shooting angular dispersion,like the light) has not changed. But the bullet impacts will just the same.

 

[Cheechako]

For one thing, no matter how good you shoot, you are not likely -perfectly centered.

Mike

I can see that you definitely are not a benchrest shooter. As I said earlier, a Benchrest shooter may, at times, hold off less than a bullet hole width. In a 6mm that is about 1/8". That's one of the reasons for the 1/8" dot on benchrest scopes. Bigger than that takes away some of the precision. So a good benchrest rifle can very likely be perfectly centered. Even a long range,600 and 1000 yards) Benchrest shooter,I am one also) will strive during the sight in period to have his shots perfectly centered.

You said, "Horizontal deviations, however small, will be amplified on this target compared to a perpendicular target. Not as viewed from the shooting position, but as seen without the angle."

I agree with that 100%. But the question was, "would your rounds then strike slightly to the left or right depending on which way the target was angled."

To that you said, yes they would.

Not the same thing Mike. I think we've about run this into the ground and will have to agree to disagree.

Ray

 

[rstreich]

I think you're getting a little cranky there, Ray If you,or any benchrest shooter) could split that vertical line perfectly every time, you'd win an awful lot of matches.

I'll make my stab: If a group is fired on a target perfectly square to the shooter and the resulting group is perfectly centered on that vertical line on the target and you then angle the target 45 degrees relative to the shooter and fire an identical group, the group will remain perfectly centered but be twice as wide as the original group. If the group is not perfectly centered, the center of the group on the angled target will be twice as far from the vertical line as it was in the perpendicular target.

Mike pretty well summed it up with the flashlight example.

 

[CopperHead]

I think that where the confusion lies is in direction that the target is rotated. IRREGARDLESS of which way the angled target is rotated, hits to the right of center will spread out to the right and hits to the left of center will spread out to the left when viewed from straight on.

John

 

[expiper]

HI Ray
Some other benchrest shooter had to get in on this with you...wowwowowo Im so confused ....I like the part where if the bullets are strikin left they spread to the left....yep..the wind will do that every time it getsa chance..haahh.......and,a lil humor here) I just though....as the bullets disperce around the bore center line...,,in other words)) as they spray around the line of departure to the target ...they will also make a "slitely" larger ...or "wallowed out" hole..I have watched tracer rounds at nite and wonder how we ever hit anything.......bullet flight and down range ballistics are very interesting,complicated, and,,,often mis-understood and argumenative.....I like the way the bullets are droping down at the angles they do at 1000yd....keep shooting ...we need real benchrest competitors input to give the keyboard shooters something to ponder...have a great day...Roger

 

[Cheechako]

I'll make my stab: If a group is fired on a target perfectly square to the shooter and the resulting group is perfectly centered on that vertical line on the target and you then angle the target 45 degrees relative to the shooter and fire an identical group, the group will remain perfectly centered but be twice as wide as the original group.

rstreich

No, I'm not getting cranky. I enjoy these kinds of discussion with other shooters who know what they are talking about. mikecr knows his stuff.

Your above post is getting close, but still no cigar. The group will remain centered, as you said, but will be approximately 1.5 times as wide, not twice. The vertical will remain the same. I'm sure there's a formula that will give you the exact horizontal measurement.

John got it right. A shot to the left of center will move to the left and a shot to the right of center will move to the right.

But again, at the risk of repeating myself, the original question, I think, was, will the group move to the left or right depending on the angle? Again, no it won't. It will still be centered.

{Quote}If you,or any benchrest shooter) could split that vertical line perfectly every time, you'd win an awful lot of matches.{Quote}

Go to a Benchrest match where the big kids are shooting. You'll be amazed. Several years ago I was a referee at a 300 yard benchrest match where a world record group was fired. For the last shot the shooter held off 1/4". At 300 yards!

Ray