Am I the only one that's never ....

[GetReal]

... shot out a barrell?

As I learn more and more here, I've gotten into better sizing / brass life practices, annealing, inproved accuracy .... and MORE shooting.

As such, I anticipate shooting out barrels - currently 224 Valkyrie (2850 fps, 85.5 Bergers, 26" bolt ) 6mm ARC (2600 fps, 105 Berger, 20" semi) and 6 Dasher (3150 fps, 105 Bergers, 28" bolt)

I assume faster velocity will on average lead to faster barrel life terminality. But I'm trying to "read the signs" of barrel wear. (Accuracy, of course)

But is there any direct correlation btwn bullet velocity and anticipated round count when barrel life nears its end? e.g. 2800 fps velocity can be expected to last 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,200 rounds, etc .....????

Are there any other lessons to be learned / you have learned about shooting out a barrel? Order new barrels right now, etc?

Helps welcome.

 

[Forum Boss]

I've seen some barrels regain significant accuracy when they were re-crowned, a relatively inexpensive procedure. A lot of guys saw their brush-equipped cleaning rods back and forth, and this can cause issues with the edge of the crown and worsening wear in the last 1.5" or so of the bore.

I have seen the damage done with a borescope. I realize many people advocate fast sawing back and forth, but when using brushes I prefer to remove the brush, clean it, and then send it back through the bore from the breach end always. It only takes a few more seconds, and it assures you're not dragging carbon and grit back over the crown and back into the barrel.

We had one guy at our club whom I convinced to change his brushing style (avoiding very rapid back and forth repetitive motions). His useful barrel life increased about 40%. His previous cleaning style was extreme to be sure, but he was quite stunned that he went from replacing barrels at 800-900 rounds to getting 1300-1500 rounds of great accuracy.

 

[INTJ]

What is considered "shot out" varies among applications and people.

If a light gun (5-shot groups) LRBR barrel had been shooting under 3" at 1000 yds, and then opens up to 5"--and that is with me keeping up with tweaking the tune before each match, I consider that barrel shot out. It might be a candidate for a new chamber, but only because I have my own lathe.

Also, If one of my LRBR barrels gets past 800 rounds and is only a mediocre shooter, it comes off and scrapped. If it's a really good shooter I might rechamber it, since I can do that myself.


Now if a big game hunting barrel goes from 1" to 2" groups at 300 yds, I don't see an issue.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I've seen some barrels regain significant accuracy when they were re-crowned, a relatively inexpensive procedure. A lot of guys saw their brush-equipped cleaning rods back and forth, and this can cause issues with the edge of the crown.

I have seen the damage done with a borescope. I realize many people advocate fast sawing back and forth, but when using brushes I prefer to remove the brush, clean it, and then send it back through the bore from the breach end always. It only takes a few more seconds, and it assures you're not dragging carbon and grit back over the crown and back into the barrel.

We had one guy at our club whom I convinced to change his brushing style (avoiding very rapid back and forth repetitive motions). His useful barrel life increased about 40%. His previous cleaning style was extreme to be sure, but he was quite stunned that he went from replacing barrels at 800-900 rounds to getting 1300-1500 rounds of great accuracy.

I agree 100 percent and will add, just a little of the brush and lots of soak time.

 

[BoydAllen]

I don't think that anyone advocates fast sawing back and forth rapidly. No short range shooter that I am aware of unscrews his brushes. Yes, I believe that a careless idiot using obviously bad technique could screw up just about anything, but not being one, I have never had a problem, and I have had the use of a bore scope for a long time. Here is a video that demonstrates good brushing technique, It is in French, by one of their better shooters. There are two solvents used. The one she shakes is a 50/50 mixture of acetone and ATV, the other Butch's.

Here is another by one of the senior shooters from the same country. At the end of the video he leaves the barrel wet with Butch's and in a following video demonstrates how he loads between matches. My assumption is that he checked for color and then dried the barrel before the next match.

 

[BoydAllen]

IMO the most important thing you can do for your cleaning is to buy a bore scope, which, thanks to Teslong, costs only about $60. Without one you are just guessing, and my experience has been that most shooters guess incorrectly.

 

[butchlambert]

Paul, I'll say 99.5% of competition will not take their brush off of their rod after each stroke. Some of us can cut a little off the breech and run the reamer in for a fresh throat. I recrown at the same time.

 

[Forum Boss]

I understand the general wisdom of short-range shooters. But understand this -- most of those guys are swapping barrels well before 1000 rounds (and maybe as little as 800). When the brush exits the muzzle the wire tips point rearward >>>>>>. When you pull that back into the barrel, the sharp points can dig directly into the edge of the crown.

I've seen what this can do -- that created what looked like shark's teeth on the edge of the crown. And this was on the barrel of a well-known PPC shooter (who modified his brushing method after seeing that).

I won't challenge what other people have done successfully. I have simply observed that repeated back and forth brushing can cause undesirable wear. I don't understand the argument against removing the gunk off a brush before sending it back in...

 

[K22]

I've only ever shot out two barrels, a 22 250 and 222 Rem.

But let me define "shot out." These were varmint rifles, and my standard is 1/2 to 5/8" MOA.

The 22 250 was a result of me engaging in too much load development trying to squeeze another few tenths reduction in group size. It was foolish in the extreme since the load I had was adequate. After about 2,500 rounds or so (can't remember the exact round count) the rifle still held 1 moa but I'd get an occasional flyer - not good for a varmint rifle. I had the rifle scoped and sure enough, I had fire cracking and erosion in the throat. About this time my varmint hunting requirements changed due to changes in farming practices and the 223 Rem was more than adequate for the majority of shot opportunities I had so I sold the 22 250.

The 222 Rem which is very hard to "shoot out" because it's not an overbore cartridge and has a relatively low powder charge but after about 5,000 rounds I started getting flyers. This rifle still shot sub 1 moa, but the flyers were unacceptable. I convinced myself that it was shot out and rebarreled with a Douglas Match 223 Rem barrel. The rebarreled rifle literally shoots just about in the same hole so on balance I was pleased with my decision.

I believe you can significantly extend barrel life by not shooting out a hot barrel, i.e., rapid shot sequences which I see all the time at the range. While this is not an option for a target competitor shooter, for me it is since I'm a varmint / predator hunter. I'm primarily interested in the cold barrel shot so all my range time is spent shooting out of a cool barrel.

If you have the barrel scoped, you will be able to see if you have fire cracking and throat erosion. This is one of the really nice things about the advent of bore scopes. But the target will also tell you, just make sure it's not you that causing the erratic shots.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I shot out one service rifle barrel. It went from holding the 10 ring to barely holding the 7 ring between 4500 and 4600 rounds. Never again will I push a competition gun to the point it quits. Life is too short and matches cost too much. Now at the first sign of accuracy degrading it gets yanked.
I shot out a 7 mag hunting gun trying to find "the" load. 10 different bullets, several different powders, and it would barely hold a paper plate when I was done.

 

[DShortt]

I took a barrel I knew was bad and stuck a bronze brush in it on the end of a DeWalt drill and went to town for 2 minutes. Breech end. Checked it with a borescope and yes I could see marks from the brush. Fired 20 rounds through it and I could see none of the marks.

Was this a scientific test? Not at all. Do I worry about bore damage from bronze brushes? Not at all.

I suppose I could try the same thing with a reciprocating saw but to what end?

 

[ronsatspokane]

Define "shot out". It would depend on the caliber, the number of rounds through it and your standards for accuracy. When I first started F Class using off the shelf Savage rifles, the bores looked like the rifling was cut by hand with a chisel, they shot though. With one of those barrels (a 6.5) I ran it past 2500 rounds. It was fire cracked a third of the way up the barrel. The groups opened up from less than half MOA to about an MOA. There are many people who would have called that a tack driver when I considered it shot out. Now days that less than half MOA is iffy as a starting point given what F Class has become. 1/4 MOA would be more preferred.

If you are running a 243 verses a 308, the 243 is going to burn out first due to the higher velocity and lower interiror surface area to disapate the heat but the round count at which this happens depends on your accuracy standards.

 

[snert]

I "shot out" a factory 40x 22-250. I had a piece of a neck fall off and sit in the barrel. I then sent a 55 grain BT down the tube. I HAD a 1/4 inch 22-250. It became a 9x14 paper 22-250. That sucked.

 

[Dave M.]

... shot out a barrell?

As I learn more and more here, I've gotten into better sizing / brass life practices, annealing, inproved accuracy .... and MORE shooting.

As such, I anticipate shooting out barrels - currently 224 Valkyrie (2850 fps, 85.5 Bergers, 26" bolt ) 6mm ARC (2600 fps, 105 Berger, 20" semi) and 6 Dasher (3150 fps, 105 Bergers, 28" bolt)

I assume faster velocity will on average lead to faster barrel life terminality. But I'm trying to "read the signs" of barrel wear. (Accuracy, of course)

But is there any direct correlation btwn bullet velocity and anticipated round count when barrel life nears its end? e.g. 2800 fps velocity can be expected to last 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,200 rounds, etc .....????

Are there any other lessons to be learned / you have learned about shooting out a barrel? Order new barrels right now, etc?

Helps welcome.

That dasher at 3150fps will definitely drop off short of 2000 rounds. On the flip side, I have 4300 rounds on my dasher shooting 105 Berger hybrids at 3040fps, and I’m still shooting several 200-12+ X’s at 600 yards. Shot a 600-46X less than 2 months ago with it.
Dave

 

[357Mag]

... shot out a barrell?

As I learn more and more here, I've gotten into better sizing / brass life practices, annealing, inproved accuracy .... and MORE shooting.

As such, I anticipate shooting out barrels - currently 224 Valkyrie (2850 fps, 85.5 Bergers, 26" bolt ) 6mm ARC (2600 fps, 105 Berger, 20" semi) and 6 Dasher (3150 fps, 105 Bergers, 28" bolt)

I assume faster velocity will on average lead to faster barrel life terminality. But I'm trying to "read the signs" of barrel wear. (Accuracy, of course)

But is there any direct correlation btwn bullet velocity and anticipated round count when barrel life nears its end? e.g. 2800 fps velocity can be expected to last 1,500 or 2,000 or 2,200 rounds, etc .....????

Are there any other lessons to be learned / you have learned about shooting out a barrel? Order new barrels right now, etc?

Helps welcome.

GetReal -

Howdy !

If you have a choice on the chambering, pick one ( for use on varmint ) that has the powder combustion
" turbulence point " located within the case' neck; and not out in the throat or leade' of the barrel.
This would argue against use of a cartridge such as .243win, where the shoulder angle & neck lg work against obtaining great barrel life.

You can look @ the " Cartridge diagrams " listed by accuratshooter. They include lines drawn to represent extension of the shoudler angle to a merge point. You'll note all of the 6mm's except .243Win, have their
" turbulence point " located within the case' neck.

And like K22 talked about..... don't rapid fire your high-intensity varmint rifle, when you can avoid doing it.

Barrel brushing:
The need to use a bore brush is not an absolute. With the great barrels being made available today, it is
not " beyond the pale " for one to receive a barrel that will cleanup w/ just wet / dry patches.
My 29" SS 6mm 1-8 5-groove Broughton ( chambered in my DEEP 6 wildcat ) has never seen a brush, and only showed blue on the patch after cleaning following the first shot. I have not seen any blue, thereafter.
Carbon in the bore has likewise not been an issue.

With regards,
357Mag

 

[BoydAllen]

I have looked at a lot of barrels, and in a lot of them with a bore scope and I have never seen sharks teeth.

A guy that I know who just won a 100 yard at at Visalia today (.1626), gets more accurate life out of his barrels than anyone else that I have personally met, At the time that I was asking him, at a match, he was shooting very well with a barrel that had 2,500 rounds on it, and during that conversation he told me that a previous one had gone to 3,500. In both cases he had a replacement ready to screw on when needed. I think that the reason for his barrels' atypical service lives may lie in his using the original process invented by Merrill Martin for impact plating bullets with moly and coating them with carnuba wax.

The reason that I bring all of this up is that at the time, and before that, he cleaned between every match, with solvent, patches and a bronze brush run both ways.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I don't (never say never) brush.
Tight wet patches from folded and rolled paper towel, 1:7, 5R, 22 Nosler.
I clean before and after a 60 round match and Cold Bore shots are pretty good.
A little over 2000 and even though the throat is longer than new it looks smooth with a bore scope.
I find very little if any copper. I broke the barrel in, about 100 shots, with HBN/alcohol and HBN tumbler coated bullets.
Next barrel ordered for the spring.

 

[BoydAllen]

I shot out one service rifle barrel. It went from holding the 10 ring to barely holding the 7 ring between 4500 and 4600 rounds. Never again will I push a competition gun to the point it quits. Life is too short and matches cost too much. Now at the first sign of accuracy degrading it gets yanked.
I shot out a 7 mag hunting gun trying to find "the" load. 10 different bullets, several different powders, and it would barely hold a paper plate when I was done.

In the past I would run into hunters who had recently discovered handloading and loved the experiments. I would always discourage them from doing what you did, suggesting that they buy a smaller caliber varmint rifle for that purpose and fun. My basic take is pick a bullet that you know will give you the terminal performance that you are looking for and when you get to a load that fits in the magazine and holds 3/4" at 100 yards you are done. From then on, at the beginning of the season check your screws, dry the oil out of the bore and chamber, check your zero and accuracy, and don't clean it until you have finished hunting, then clean it well, lightly oil the bore, and put it away until next year. Done that way, your 7mag barrel would probably last a lifetime. The other thing that I would tell them was that wasting your barrel shooting it before having the action bedded and barrel floated is probably a waste of time, barrel steel, and components.

 

[Ray123]

It would depend on the accuracy you desire, or the accuracy you actually need for what you are doing. Competition, serious, casual, plinking.
I do my own barrel chambering, so it's not a big deal to wear out a barrel...I shoot them with hot loads, heat them up, run the piss out of them...smell the steel burning, can't see the target for the heat waves coming off the barrel...the Varget in the chamber will be over pressure if it stays in the hot chamber longer than 5 seconds...but I'm still hitting the target at 1000 yds. I ran 308 barrels to 8 thousand rds each 20 years ago just like that, when I shot a lot at 1000 to 1400 yds with the 308. And I used to keep good records..Example 308 win 8-28-05 7000 rds on barrel check for accuracy at 100 yds with 4, 3 shot groups average was .239" ...which was good enough for the purpose of this rifle, and back to 1000 yds but at 8,000 I installed a new barrel, regardless of how it shot. I shot 85 to 100rds per practice session, (no muzzle breaks in those days...but a 2 oz Jewel trigger) 1 or 2 times a week even in the winter in really adverse conditions, year round, makes it more challenging
And never clean a 308 barrel out shooting...and I could skip a few cleanings and still do okay....but I tryed every cleaning method ever listed in Precision Shooting Mag, back then. This is why I have so much respect for the lowly 308 Win and own more now than back then...they are work horses, shoot them hard, heat them up, abuse the hell out of them ... the 308 always preforms. Bore scope those barrels and it's bad...but the 25-06 was worse...it became a long action 308 Win 30" barrel...Lol
The 300 RUM will get a new barrel soon...but I didn't count the rounds on it ... quit doing so after so many years. Not sure why, maybe just lazy, or old age, don't give a rat?...just bore scope it, and ask, is it still doing what I expect from it?
And no I don't treat my 6 dasher that way, even though I have a dasher reamer waiting to go to work, when this delicate little round stops shooting up expectations, I'll change out the barrel for another one, exactly the same, cause this on shoots good.

 

[std7mag]

I considered my Stevens 200 in 7mm-08AI shot out when i couldn't load a 140gr Berger VLD out to the lands & still have enough grip by the case neck.

It had always done good for what it was. A sporter barreled hunting rifle.

Accuracy in that regard was still decent.

Round count was 6,000+.
I bought the rifle used & shot it for a year before reaming the chamber to AI. I didn't start keeping track of the number of rounds untill after i reamed the chamber.