All IBS LR nationals will now be shot in IBS using Bench Rotation only!! NO Relay rotation.

[BountyHunter]

I had filed a protest at the 1000 Yard nationals on the bench rotation system that was used. The club drew our names for the first set of relays and that was all. I ended up on the last LG relay and last HG relay for all three matches and three days. We just moved right 4 benches but stayed on the same relay all 3 days. The IBS and E Board just met last night and my protest was denied. The IBS Long Range Committee (LRC) and supported by IBS Executive Board is now saying that ALL LR Nationals to include the upcoming 600 Yard Nationals in Oct will be shot with Bench Rotation ONLY as the IBS LR rules (rulebook 13 starting with line 618) do not specifically state that Relay rotation is allowed. It will be 2019 before an agenda item can be drawn up and presented to the voters at the 2019 winter meeting.

It was stated that random draw and computer draw for bench and relay assisgnments was "old school and too complicated" for clubs to handle. Bench relay only is their way to the future it seems.

Do not try to use common sense here as we are talking the current LRC.

BTW rule line 589, "The over arching tenent is relay and bench assignments must be done fairly so as to not discriminately advantage or disadvantage any shooter..." is out as they are just advantaging and disadvantaging shooters indiscriminately now. So fairness is out and not important. The current LRC says shooting the last relay 6 relays in a row is not disadvantaging. Remember some shooters got to shoot relays 1 and 2 a minimum of 3 times in a row.

Anyone looking for a complete BAT M dasher, new wheeler stock, Brux, RAS tuner, NF comp and SEB. Hang loose I will probably be listing them.

Herman Harke

 

[Ga. Dawg]

I had filed a protest at the 1000 Yard nationals on the bench rotation system that was used. The club drew our names for the first set of relays and that was all. I ended up on the last LG relay and last HG relay for all three matches and three days. We just moved right 4 benches but stayed on the same relay all 3 days. The IBS and E Board just met last night and my protest was denied. The IBS Long Range Committee (LRC) and supported by IBS Executive Board is now saying that ALL LR Nationals to include the upcoming 600 Yard Nationals in Oct will be shot with Bench Rotation ONLY as the IBS LR rules (rulebook 13 starting with line 618) do not specifically state that Relay rotation is allowed. It will be 2019 before an agenda item can be drawn up and presented to the voters at the 2019 winter meeting.

It was stated that random draw and computer draw for bench and relay assisgnments was "old school and too complicated" for clubs to handle. Bench relay only is their way to the future it seems.

Do not try to use common sense here as we are talking the current LRC.

BTW rule line 589, "The over arching tenent is relay and bench assignments must be done fairly so as to not discriminately advantage or disadvantage any shooter..." is out as they are just advantaging and disadvantaging shooters indiscriminately now. So fairness is out and not important. The current LRC says shooting the last relay 6 relays in a row is not disadvantaging. Remember some shooters got to shoot relays 1 and 2 a minimum of 3 times in a row.

Anyone looking for a complete BAT M dasher, new wheeler stock, Brux, RAS tuner, NF comp and SEB. Hang loose I will probably be listing them.

Herman Harke

So Herman, I take it you didn't win?
Mike

 

[CaptainMal]

Reads like you had the "bad luck of the draw" and want to find a way out.

Here in South Florida we are soon going to start some IBS sanctioned matches. It will be done on our expense and our time and effort. No way will we satisfy everyone. Heck, right now we work to provide a shooting platform and experience for others and are often "rewarded" with complaints and hostility.

Do not really understand the bench rotation issue as I have no experience with the issue. Just know that those trying to provide a shooting experience need appreciation for their efforts. You don't read like appreciation is coming from you in any positive manner.

 

[BountyHunter]

Mike: Ha ha. Did not go with expectation of winning but the did not go with expectation of getting screwed 6 relays in a row and being told that is the only method now for nationals. Someone else will be in the barrel next time as I am done.

A bigger problem is the dual method of the Long Range Committee interpreting rules. On bench rotation they say the rules do not specifically allow relay rotation so it cannot be done, but at same Nationals a LRC member told me on rear sand bags anything goes unless specifically prohibited. They like it both ways depending on the rule. Wonder if 4 and 5 inch stocks are legal as the rules now do not specifically allow them? You see what I am saying?

That needs to be fixed. You cannot interpret rules as both restrictive and permissive depending on which rule the LRC happens to like that day. It is either one way or the other.

So which is it LRC, restrictive or permissive interpretation of the rules? You cannot do both.

Captain Mal; As for the appreciation remark having run/worked two nationals and one where I had to pull $150 out of pocket at the end of the match to pay target pullers because someone else exceeded certain expense, I certainly understand you cannot please everyone. But you better play by rules interpreted consistently and fairly. I can say you had better get real acquainted with the rules or it will bite you. If you do not understand bench and relay rotation, then why comment as you are clueless on the issue. Perceived fairness will always be critical if you want to run matches and it is not that way now with the LRC. The bench and relay rotation rules for random/computerized draw came from a time when clubs would deliberately put rival clubs on worst relays and benches, 'ole Bob always shoots from his choice of relays and benches etc. It has worked with no fairness issues since the early 2000s for the clubs that actually used it.

IMO 600 Yard is doing it right with both a relay and bench rotation but LRC does not want that. Super simple and easy to implement.

 

[264WM70]

Writing a small sort and shuffle program that can sort shooters by target number, relay, and bench is very easy. I am sure that program already exists as freeware and can be customize for IBS use. If the IBS would adopt the use of this type of freeware, any IBS sanctioned event could enter the shooter name, number of benches, and number of targets. The program would then auto fill the relays for each target. For club local seasons, this program could shuffle a whole season of benches and relay for all the matches for the season. As new shooters come and go they could be sprinkled in the open spots. I believe Williamsport already uses such a program for their season. The advantage/disadvantage caused by human error would be decreased although the advantage/disadvantage caused by mother nature would still exist.

 

[ridgeway]

I do 100% agree that bench and relay should be swapped the next day. Advantage either way, definitely not. Atleast IMHO.

I could care less what relay I'm on. When it's your time to shoot, you have to adapt and deal what is delt to you, period. Focus on what you need to do. I never dwell on where I'm at or what others are doing. I focus and do the best I can possibly do. Again, this is my opinion, lol.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Just take a breathe and slow down. I can see your point. There are some smart guys and good shooters on the LRC. It may not happen overnight but I doubt they dont see the need for a relay rotation. Random draws work if you shoot enough targets for it to equal out. But with only 3 you could get screwed. This sport is not easily grown and I hate to see guys get bent over a small detail and quit. Lets get it worked out.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Herman,
Heres my understanding. I dont know that anyone disagrees with you. Getting relay 3 for all your targets sucks. However theres nothing in the rule book that says a club MUST rotate relays. Thats why your appeal failed. Also, theres nothing that says a club CANT rotate relays. So it will be up to the club hosting the 600 yd nats if they want to rotate relays. I think if the Montana club gets the nats one day we will look seriously at rotating the relays. No matter what, theres still gonna be a better draw than another and luck will still always play a role in bench drawing.

 

[hpasquet]

Some light relays averaged low single digits and others double digit. No one in the double digit relays got the big wood.

 

[M995]

Go to a +3 +3 format

 

[CaptainMal]

Maybe your right? I will get nothing but labor, expense and aggravation trying to organize and run a sanctioned shoot. Would be a whole lot easier to forget the whole thing and not bother.

Pleasing people and getting appreciation is not worth it. Complain all you want. It's a good education for all that want to promote shooting sports to be aware of.

 

[BountyHunter]

Herman,
Heres my understanding. I dont know that anyone disagrees with you. Getting relay 3 for all your targets sucks. However theres nothing in the rule book that says a club MUST rotate relays. Thats why your appeal failed. Also, theres nothing that says a club CANT rotate relays. So it will be up to the club hosting the 600 yd nats if they want to rotate relays. I think if the Montana club gets the nats one day we will look seriously at rotating the relays. No matter what, theres still gonna be a better draw than another and luck will still always play a role in bench drawing.

Alex. I did not get relay 3. I got relay 9 LG the last relay 3 times. I got relay 8 HG again the last one 3 times . As for nothing in the rule book about not rotating relays you are wrong. The LRC is saying that the rule does not say THAT YOU CAN ROTATE relays therefore you cannot use relay rotation at the nationals. That is their decision which is stupid.

As for the relay shuffle program it has existed and been used successfully without issue since early 2000s until this LRC decided to mandate bench rotation only on their rewrite of the rules.

 

[ridgeway]

I was on first relay LG and last HG(relay 8 too) all weekend. Did the best in HG. Shot same LG for both. No relay was pretty! Shot a 3.6" HG group in a nasty relay...

Relay order is a non issue...

 

[M995]

I had relay 8 in HG

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex. I did not get relay 3. I got relay 9 LG the last relay 3 times. I got relay 8 HG again the last one 3 times . As for nothing in the rule book about not rotating relays you are wrong. The LRC is saying that the rule does not say you can rotate relays therefore you cannot use relay rotation at the nationals. That is their decision which is stupid.

As for the relay shuffle program it has existed and been used successfully without issue since early 2000s until this LRC decided to mandate bench rotation only on their rewrite of the rules.

I said relay 3 but I know what you meant. Have local matches on my mind. Where in the book does it say you cant rotate relays? If its not in the rules, in my opinion its legal.

 

[BountyHunter]

I said relay 3 but I know what you meant. Have local matches on my mind. Where in the book does it say you cant rotate relays? If its not in the rules, in my opinion its legal.

Ha Ha, there you go using common sense again you can never be on the LRC. It does not say that you cannot anywhere!!!! I argued that the 600 Nationals have been doing exactly that with bench AND relay rotation since at least 2014 and the LRC was ok with it then. However, the NOW the LRC said it does not explicitly say you can rotate relays, so in their mind then you cannot rotate relays. Warped logic I know, but then on other hands they say on another rule if it doesn't say you can't then you can.

Another item is that this rule was NEVER submitted as a stand alone agenda item and voted on by the members. It was not in the last LR rule book #12. It was the figment of the LRCs imagination when they were told by the E Board to edit the LR rules to "clarify" issues. It seems they took it as a mandate to rewrite rules totally to their desires and insert this rule in knowing it would pass the annual vote on the rules as a whole. They were allowed by the IBS E Board to bypass the normal agenda format for changing rules where you submit "As it reads" "Change to" and "Justification" as normally done.

 

[BountyHunter]

The answer is actually twofold.

1. There needs to be an agenda item to put the LRC in one direction as to how to read rules. The agenda item would state that the 1000 Yard rules are to be interpreted permissive rather than restrictive. In other words if it does not say explicity that you cannot do something, then you can do it. Otherwise, right now there is not an explicit rule that says you can use 4" wide stocks and probably hundreds of other examples that wil have to be changed one by one.

2. A second agenda item is needed for 1000 yard bench and relay rotation. 600 has less relays and a 2 relay rotation works perfect for them. In 1000 yard with the number of shooters and benches a 4 and 4 rotation would work perfect. Rotate 4 relays and 4 benches after each set of LG and HG targets for 3 times over the Nationals. In this nationals, those that started on relay 1 would have ended on LG 8 (out of 9 relays) and ended on HG 8 (out of 8) and rotatated down the line a total of 12 benches out of 14 benches. Most LR clubs have 12-14 benches, maybe some have more.

Alex, know anyone wanting a complete dasher BAT M melonited gun, hard case, 2nd gen NF competition, rear bag, SEB NEO, dies, bullets, brass, 21st century arbor press with all the goodies etc? You just put your new stock on it. It shot 3.5" practice day and won 2 relays.

 

[alf]

2. A second agenda item is needed for 1000 yard bench and relay rotation. In 1000 yard with the number of shooters and benches a 4x4 shuffle would work perfect. Rotate 4 relays and 4 benches after each set of LG and HG targets for 3 times over the Nationals. In this nationals, those that started on relay 1 would have ended on LG 8 (out of 9 relays) and ended on HG 8 (out of 8) and rotated down the line a total of 12 benches out of 14 benches.

I argued for that format for years (among other things), but it fell on deaf ears.

The 1st year Pella had the Nationals, 7 of the top 10 in 2-gun, shot both guns in the 1st relay. I shot all my targets in the last relays.

The "shuffle" program sucks.........

 

[Stan Taylor]

I don't have but one thing to say because I am not going to get in a passing match with nobody here on this subject it should not even be here but here goes The Wind is your friend at Whitehorse you just got beat Sir that is it I have been there.

 

[BountyHunter]

I don't have but one thing to say because I am not going to get in a passing match with nobody here on this subject it should not even be here but here goes The Wind is your friend at Whitehorse you just got beat Sir that is it I have been there.

Stanley

It is not about getting beat. I knew that going in. It is about was is fair