Aftermarket Magazine for Howa?

[flatlander]

When I learned that Howa was going to start making their Mini actions with the Grendel/7.62x39 boltface, I was really pleased. It opened up the use of these fine little actions for so many interesting chamberings - 6PPC, 6RAT, 20 Grendel, 22 Grendel....etc, etc., plus the 6.5 Grendel, which is no slouch itself. First issue was finding aftermarket stocks for the Mini, then a replacement for the flimsy plastic triggerguard/mag well units that they ship with....and once suppliers stepped up to bringing out a good selection of stocks and/or chassis and machined aluminum DBM units, I was very pleased. I personally haven't had many problems with the plastic OEM magazines, aside from having to deepen the bottom inlet for the DBM on a couple of stocks to put the magazine high enough to feed properly. To date, I've built myself four custom rifles on Mini actions, ranging from a 20 Tactical to a 6.5 Grendel, and I've gotten a lot of satisfaction & enjoyment out of them. LSI isn't the most organized outfit to deal with, but I've been able to get most of that I needed from them, including several barreled actions before they granted Brownells exclusive rights to sell them.

However, I kind of doubt that we're going to see a really good replacement magazine out of them - that's just my opinion after dealing with several different people who work at LSI. Some of them are apparently not gun people, based on my experience. If anyone has contacts in the industry who are willing to listen to owners' issues with the OEM plastic mags, I'd certainly encourage you to work diligently to try to enlighten them where the need for better mags are concerned. I believe good magazines would go a long way towards making these little rifles a whole lot more appealing.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id rather just not use one of those actions if i had to get on facebook. Plenty of good stuff out there- no need to try and try harder to use something that just wont work. Its like buying a savage knowing your trigger is a royal POS but hoping someday somebody will come up with a good one, and actually suffering thru using it while you wait

 

[Knotwild]

They know..

Wow, thanks for enlightening me. When I decide to move, it will definitely be with CZ then. I can't imagine companies that don't listen to their customers. Maybe they have been drinking Fukushima water.

 

[Kramerica]

Got this reply from a friend the other day... anybody know if this would work?

 

[Oso]

Wow, thanks for enlightening me. When I decide to move, it will definitely be with CZ then. I can't imagine companies that don't listen to their customers. Maybe they have been drinking Fukushima water.

I decided to Bang the Drum as loud as I could hoping to catch someone's attention that could remedy the issue, and by that I mean start making aftermarket magazines. My barreled action is sitting in the box that Brownells sent me 2 years ago. There are 300 rounds of factory ammo waiting to be shot plus another several hundred cases to be loaded. I am pregnant on 6.5 Grendel.

I don't want/need another project just to get a new gun to work. I can either go buy a CZ 527 or build an AR15 and put this baby to rest. I almost sent my brother back home with the barreled action just to remove it off my "hopefully someday" list. Then I realized that I would just be pushing my Lemon onto someone I like, which isn't cool.

Never have I seen a gun company make it so hard for its customers to spend more money on it's products. I have come to recognize that the lack off aftermarket accessories for an existing product translates into "Red Flag" about the product.

 

[flatlander]

So let me ask you Oso - if that bbl'd action is still in the box that Brownells shipped it in, have you ever tried using it? Or have posted problems on the 6.5 Grendel forum put you off to the point where you don't want to even try yours? As I said in my #21 reply above, I haven't had all that many magazine problems with the four rifles I've built: 1. 6RAT in McMillan Game Scout 2. 20 Tactical in Boyds ProVarmint 3. 22 Grendel in Boyds Prairie Hunter 4. 6.5 Grendel in B&C #1003 M-40. And the issues I've had were all minor ones, fairly easy to deal with.

I like the Howa Mini actions - that should be obvious. I used a CZ527 7.62x39 carbine as the basis for the 1st 6RAT bolt rifle I built, and it turned out pretty nice, helped along by how attractive the grain & figure in its Turkish walnut stock is. But I've never been able to get the 527's magazine to be 100% reliable, nor is it long enough to house 6RAT loads with any of the 105gr bullets I wanted to shoot in it. You can't single feed longer rounds through a 527 because of the Mauser-style claw extractor, which is one of the reasons I was so pleased with the Howa's push-feed action. Yes, I'd certainly like to see LSI step up and come up with either a much better poly, or sturdy metal magazine that addresses all the complaints that have surfaced. But since that may never happen, I'll make the best of what relatively minor problems I've had, and get out and shoot my Minis.

 

[Oso]

Dennis,

Fair Question ... My belly-aching ...bellowing... maybe the better term, is intentional and very direct. Legacy can't do a search on this Forum without finding this. Like others, I really like the action size and really want to get behind it. It is perfect fit for such rounds as the 6.5 Grendel or any 223 parent case cartridge. My Brownells box has not simply sat idle in the corner of my closet. I periodically pull it out and run the action. Any number of times I have been ready to buy a stock or chassis...items in cart.

I was really excited about the B&C's stock, but then the issues came flooding in. The thread on 6.5 Grendel Forum is worth reading...the shooters and B&C representative were trying to figure out a way to make it work. This included shooters sending in magazines to B&C for testing and to take measurements... B&C even halted production because of the sheer volume of failures to feed and function that shooters were reporting after installing their mini-Howa into the new B&C stock. This is not some minor issue...other stock makers have flat out refused to build or inlet stocks for the mini-Howa because of this potential nightmare and the risk of the failure being attributed to their product. If B&C hadn't been as open and responsive to issues being raised, the failure might have blown up on B&C and damaged their reputation. Fortunately, B&C and shooting community were able to identify the real culprit ... inferior manufacturing, design and QC on the magazines by Legacy... and crappy plastic bottom metal

Yes, there have been shooters that have had zero problems with their rifle and magazines. However, it is far more common experience to buy several magazines trying to find one "favorite magazine" (actually works and feeds all the rounds) and then have a few practice mags that maybe feeds 1-3 rounds. This is Unacceptable. I have enough other quality projects and rifle builds to keep myself busy until someone in industry commits to solving a critical design failure of this rifle. I wouldn't accept this type of performance from a CZ or even an AR...

I would prefer a aftermarket metal magazine, but I would settle for a blind magazine with hinged floor plate. Neither of these exist at this moment so whichever one happens first will make my decision of MDT LSS_XL chassis (Drop box mags) or B&C Stock (internal magazine with hinged floor plate).

Thanks - I'll wait for an aftermarket solution or for my brother to convince me to give him the rifle to screw with.

 

[mac86951]

Got this reply from a friend the other day... anybody know if this would work?

View attachment 1155763

My Howa mag is labeled (7.62x39/6.5grendel).

Dennis,

Fair Question ... My belly-aching ...bellowing... maybe the better term, is intentional and very direct. Legacy can't do a search on this Forum without finding this. Like others, I really like the action size and really want to get behind it. It is perfect fit for such rounds as the 6.5 Grendel or any 223 parent case cartridge. My Brownells box has not simply sat idle in the corner of my closet. I periodically pull it out and run the action. Any number of times I have been ready to buy a stock or chassis...items in cart.

I was really excited about the B&C's stock, but then the issues came flooding in. The thread on 6.5 Grendel Forum is worth reading...the shooters and B&C representative were trying to figure out a way to make it work. This included shooters sending in magazines to B&C for testing and to take measurements... B&C even halted production because of the sheer volume of failures to feed and function that shooters were reporting after installing their mini-Howa into the new B&C stock. This is not some minor issue...other stock makers have flat out refused to build or inlet stocks for the mini-Howa because of this potential nightmare and the risk of the failure being attributed to their product. If B&C hadn't been as open and responsive to issues being raised, the failure might have blown up on B&C and damaged their reputation. Fortunately, B&C and shooting community were able to identify the real culprit ... inferior manufacturing, design and QC on the magazines by Legacy... and crappy plastic bottom metal

Yes, there have been shooters that have had zero problems with their rifle and magazines. However, it is far more common experience to buy several magazines trying to find one "favorite magazine" (actually works and feeds all the rounds) and then have a few practice mags that maybe feeds 1-3 rounds. This is Unacceptable. I have enough other quality projects and rifle builds to keep myself busy until someone in industry commits to solving a critical design failure of this rifle. I wouldn't accept this type of performance from a CZ or even an AR...

I would prefer a aftermarket metal magazine, but I would settle for a blind magazine with hinged floor plate. Neither of these exist at this moment so whichever one happens first will make my decision of MDT LSS_XL chassis (Drop box mags) or B&C Stock (internal magazine with hinged floor plate).

Thanks - I'll wait for an aftermarket solution or for my brother to convince me to give him the rifle to screw with.

I'll just toss my hat into the ring here; I went thru B&C and acquired the "M40" style stock. Yes I had some feed troubles initially, B&C took it back and corrected the issue and now it feeds and functions without problems. I'm still using the original Howa parts and I'm very happy with the Howa mini performance (6.5 Grendel). I had expected there might have been some challenges, but like any good company, B&C honors their products and ensures they perform. Yes it's an extra step and some wait time. No, not all stocks have to be adjusted after purchase.

I too hope LSI improves their product, for consistency, but overall; I've had far more trouble with other aftermarket parts for other rifles.

-Mac

 

[JSH]

I had four CZ527’s,all different cartridges. I had shot several prior to this. Accuracy was very good from all of them. Feeding from the magazine and single shot just plain sucked and I won’t say a magazine never fell out of one.

I bought one of the Minis and played with it. I had read all the comments on these rifles and their magazines.
I played around with it a fair bit factory stock and bottom metal. I had zero issues. Working the bolt and feeling it slide nice and smooth is a pleasure. Mag is empty and you want to shoot one more round? Toss it in and close the bolt.

Stock out of the box comparison accuracy wise, both are about the same 1” easy but usually better. The CZ had a varmint barrel and the mini is a pencil. The mini does start to string fairly quick when it heats up, but to be some what expected too.

All of the CZ’s found new homes except the major problem child, 17 HH.
I have since bought three minis and put one in a chassis, and still had money left from the CZ’s. Can buy close to two rifles for one.
The pencil barrel is going to be replaced at some point this summer.

Neither one of these are without issues. CZ has been around a fair bit longer so sure there will be more support.
I am looking forward to the flush bottom metal that is in the works, then picking out a B&C stock for the 6.5.

 

[flatlander]

Full disclosure guys - I'm from western Kansas, only 65mi from Dodge City, where B&C is located. The guy who designed the M-40 style & now their new sporter-style stocks for the Mini is a good friend of mine, and having known him for 15yrs, I'd have expected nothing less from him when it comes to the way he dealt with issued with their stocks for the Mini. He's a shooter - hunts quite a bit, and when he can get away for a practical/tactical rifle match, really enjoys shooting them also. Only trouble is, he's so busy with his family & work at B&C that it's tough to get together to go shooting as much as we'd like to. He's been up here to shoot on my 600-1000yd range several times, and I've been down to their "Hide Out" to shoot with him a time or two. Always look forward to seeing & talking with him.

I'm planning to get one of their new sporter stocks for one of my Mini rifles in 22 Grendel that currently has a Boyds Prairie Hunter on it. The Boyds stock works fine - I pillar bedded it and machined the bottom inlet to get the DBM set to hold the mags at the correct height for good feeding. It's just that I prefer a rather tight radius on the pistol grip, having shot a lot with prone & tactical stocks with near vertical grips, and this Boyds stock has a rather open radius grip that I don't care for. And, as attractive as some laminated stock color combinations can be, they're almost always heavier than a composite stock. I like walking with a rifle - never know when you might jump up a coyote and have a chance to nail him, so carrying a fairly light & accurate rifle is something I've always enjoyed.

I've spent a fair amount of time reading & posting over on the 6.5 Grendel forums; there are quite a few Mini owners over there that have voiced their opinions on various aspects of the Mini action. Recently saw photos of a prototype hinged floorplate bottom metal for the Mini on that forum, something that several of the guys there have been howling for since the first time I visited the bolt rifle & single shot forum on the Grendel site. It's not clear to me just how this is going to work, since the Mini action was designed to work with detachable magazines from the start, and thus has no feed rails machined into the mag well. But where there's a will, there's a way, so when this new bottom metal comes to market with all the issues worked out, it may indeed serve to make the Mini a more desirable action to a larger group of shooters. To be totally honest about my feelings for the Mini, I have to admit that if someone was importing a Sako action of the same size (like the L461 Vixen that I bought new in 223 in 1971), with the correct boltface for the Grendel, I'd have preferred to build a couple of rifles on such an action. But I betcha I could buy three Howa Mini actions for what one Sako would cost - which is a moot point, since AFAIK, Sako doesn't make those little actions any more, and even if they do, no one is importing actions alone.

 

[Rtheurer]

So I Have to Ask. Is this Magazine issue a life or death situation here? I mean really, are you going to use the Howa Mini for a Big game hunt? Are you using it for Full Blown Competition Rifle that has timed Rapid fire? Or is it a walking Varmint rifle used for plinking and taking critters?
I suspect its the latter two. If one Round does not feed our of the five, which in my experience is the second to last round, is it going to be the loss of a Coyote that you already shot at 3 times or a Prairie dog that is going to come back up out of the hole in another 5 minutes, Or a Ground hog.

So I am willing to bet i am the odd duck here and one of very few who is testing it for a Competition rifle. NRA Highpower with Rapid fire strings to be exact. I have 6 Magazines, that i use, and yes I have had malfunctions. It could all be fixed by a new Follower i am pretty sure, that has some anti tilt tabs front and back, and little stiffer spring, then mine would be 100% i am almost positive. Cant say for sure until its tried though.
I am seeing alot of teeth nashing over almost nothing. Its a fantastic little action that you can put an excellent trigger on and some cool stocks to use with. If your not using one because of the magazine.. I assure you... your missing out over almost nothing.

Would I like them to be 100% like they should be. Well Of course.

I think I am going to try and make a anti tilt Follower and i have already stretched the spring out to give it a little extra force. Seems like it SHOULD be a simple fix. Of course... that can always be the assumption with reality something entirely different with Rifles.

 

[Rtheurer]

Got this reply from a friend the other day... anybody know if this would work?

View attachment 1155763

Nope, The Ar Magazines are double stack and shorter, the Howa Magazine is NOT an AR magazine and is longer and a single stack magazine which is Narrow. I have both and looked at that last night. It wont work.

 

[Kramerica]

So I Have to Ask. Is this Magazine issue a life or death situation here? I mean really, are you going to use the Howa Mini for a Big game hunt? Are you using it for Full Blown Competition Rifle that has timed Rapid fire? Or is it a walking Varmint rifle used for plinking and taking critters?
I suspect its the latter two. If one Round does not feed our of the five, which in my experience is the second to last round, is it going to be the loss of a Coyote that you already shot at 3 times or a Prairie dog that is going to come back up out of the hole in another 5 minutes, Or a Ground hog.

So I am willing to bet i am the odd duck here and one of very few who is testing it for a Competition rifle. NRA Highpower with Rapid fire strings to be exact. I have 6 Magazines, that i use, and yes I have had malfunctions. It could all be fixed by a new Follower i am pretty sure, that has some anti tilt tabs front and back, and little stiffer spring, then mine would be 100% i am almost positive. Cant say for sure until its tried though.
I am seeing alot of teeth nashing over almost nothing. Its a fantastic little action that you can put an excellent trigger on and some cool stocks to use with. If your not using one because of the magazine.. I assure you... your missing out over almost nothing.

Would I like them to be 100% like they should be. Well Of course.

I think I am going to try and make a anti tilt Follower and i have already stretched the spring out to give it a little extra force. Seems like it SHOULD be a simple fix. Of course... that can always be the assumption with reality something entirely different with Rifles.

It’s for deer and coyotes. It won’t feed any rounds so yes it is a problem. Maybe you like paying money for sub par products but I don’t. I agree it’s an awesome action for the money but come on man make a halfway decent mag, it’s a known issue... they should step up and fix it period.

 

[Oso]

The mini-Howa gets a lot more attention amongst 65Grendel group. Here are some relevant threads.

B&C Stock update
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...ock-Update&s=406516493e2b8a155057141a4427521e

Bottom Metal - Hinged Floor Plate Update
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/show...loorplate)&s=406516493e2b8a155057141a4427521e

Magazine Spring
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?21263-Howa-Stiffer-Magazine-Springs

Magazines
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?19711-Howa-Mini-Magazines

 

[flatlander]

I guess since I have five of the Mini rifles, I'm allowed to pitch a little bit of a fit for something no one here has mentioned yet - the ridiculous prices for these flimsy little magazines. Last time I checked Brownells, they were priced at $42. That would be plenty if they were 100% functional, but since we all know & agree that they're prone to having issues, it's more like highway robbery.

 

[McFred]

Please, for those of you who declare the Mini a defective product, sell your Minis and purchase a Sako L461 'smithed to what you wanted in the first place, and stop moaning about the Mini quality issues or expensive magazines. I've read all the whinging over on 65grendel for the last couple years and, frankly, I'm tired of reading about it. I don't think it needs to be re-hashed here. LSI doesn't appear to be interested in addressing perceived issues on a $400 out-the-door rifle, so consider moving on and stop beating a dead horse.

For what it's worth, I have a Sako L461 and 2 Minis and they've met my expectations. There's a reason the Sako is 3x the price of a Mini.

 

[stacy]

Here what I did to mine cut them down to hold 3 rds each dpi metal on Grendal and factory on the 7.62 x39 cut down a 30 carbine mag spring they work well and I’ve always like the flush fit look

 

[Kramerica]

Here what I did to mine cut them down to hold 3 rds each dpi metal on Grendal and factory on the 7.62 x39 cut down a 30 carbine mag spring they work well and I’ve always like the flush fit look

I just bought a aftermarket spring. It’s functional now, still hangs up occasionally but at least I can use it. I have mine in an MDT chassis, it’s pretty much flush with the front so it won’t hang up or anything, I don’t want to mess with cutting it down.

 

[flatlander]

McFred - I doubt you'd have read very many of the complaints if LSI would get off their high horse & work with Howa to find solutions to the issues Mini owners have been dealing with. I'd like to know how the Mini action came to be in the first place - was it a pet project of LSI that Howa didn't fully support, or all Howa's doing? It's just a shame that such a neat little action is handicapped with poorly designed plastic bottom metal & magazines. Imagine how popular the Mini could be if it'd been designed with aluminum DBM & metal mags from the beginning... I've thoroughly enjoyed working with my four Mini-based rifles to get them to work, including two in B&C M40 stocks, one in a McMillan Game Scout, and the other in a Boyds ProVarmint.

And just in case you might assume I've never tried other reduced-size actions, here's a photo of my CZ 527 with a Krieger #4 sporter bbl in 6RAT, a Sako 6PPC, my stock, still in original condition, Sako L461 Vixen in 223 that I bought new in 1971, a Mini 22 Grendel in B&C M40, and another Mini 6RAT in a McMillan Game Scout . As I've mentioned before, if the Sako with PPC boltface was still available, I'd have bought a couple of them as the basis for custom builds long ago. As it is, I have no desire to take the pictured 6PPC Sako apart just for the action, and still have to convert it into a repeater - which is why I bought Howa Mini bbl'd actions in the 1st place. As you can see in the photo, my Mini rifles have been equipped with DIP aluminum DBM - what you can't see is that I've tuned the triggers to give a very clean, crisp break at about 1.2lbs. They've got good quality 20 MOA scope rails & good scopes mounted - all that's needed to make the most of the action's performance & quality is decent magazines. An importer who was really on the ball & interested in supplying rifles to shooters who're looking for either a neat little walking varmint rifle, or an extremely accurate rifle suitable for competition could easily make the most of the Mini's design features & size. Even with the issues the Mini is saddled with, I'm still thinking seriously about buying a complete Mini in 223 to build a 20 Vartarg on. It's just too desirable an action to ignore...

 

[Hammertime1]

Shortening the clip so that it is flush, may help resolve your problems of not enough spring tension. When you make this modification, which is actually pretty easy, you use the original spring. With the original spring in a smaller clip, there is considerably more spring tension.
I love my mini’s