Affordable High Power Rifle?
- Thread starter BZR
- Start date
Jonathan Zimmerman
Silver $$ Contributor
I started into High Power last year with a National Match Rock River A4. It does shoot great, I have only run handloads through it. But, I think $1200 is about what I have invested in the rifle alone. I agree with Mudcat, in hindsight I wish I would have bought a White Oak upper and a Rock River lower. In the end I think it would be about the same price, maybe a little less. The quality of a White Oak surpasses any of the "National Match" uppers from any of the big names (RR, Bush, Armalite). If you look around in the service rifle class White Oak is very popular. I really can't speak too much about the match rifles, but know that they are typically much more expensive. I did start out with a really cheap spotting scope, wore a sweatshirt, and had one of my old service gloves on my sling hand. What I am saying is that you can get out there without all of the high dollar equipment and just shoot and learn what you need to know. By then, you will know exactly what you want, and how far you want to take the sport. I wish you the best luck, it is a great group of guys and a lot of fun. Any questions, shoot me a line anytime.
Obviously an AR15 SR is the only way to go. Good prices, cheap to reload for and very accurate.
Check with some of the SR shooters at your local cross the course matchs (full distance). There will be at least one that has a "Shot out" rifle he is willing to sell. Also, watch the various HP forums, someone is always selling a rifle that was built (White Oak, Compass Lake, etc) and they feel is over the hill for 600 yd shooting.
Now, with this shot out rifle, enter all the 100 yd matches you can. This rifle will still shoot at that distance (probably out to 300 yds) very well. You got a bargain priced rifle for competing that you can learn the game with. Reduced yardage matches are a great way to get into the game to see if you like it or not. They also allow you to work on your positions, techniques, and improve your skill level.
If you want to take the sport further, after your first full year of competition, you can send the upper off for rebbling to any good smith and now you will have a rifle that will take you as far as your skill can.
The various HP forums are also a good place to place adds or watch for used equipment like mats, scopes etc.
Just my .02.
Bob
Check with some of the SR shooters at your local cross the course matchs (full distance). There will be at least one that has a "Shot out" rifle he is willing to sell. Also, watch the various HP forums, someone is always selling a rifle that was built (White Oak, Compass Lake, etc) and they feel is over the hill for 600 yd shooting.
Now, with this shot out rifle, enter all the 100 yd matches you can. This rifle will still shoot at that distance (probably out to 300 yds) very well. You got a bargain priced rifle for competing that you can learn the game with. Reduced yardage matches are a great way to get into the game to see if you like it or not. They also allow you to work on your positions, techniques, and improve your skill level.
If you want to take the sport further, after your first full year of competition, you can send the upper off for rebbling to any good smith and now you will have a rifle that will take you as far as your skill can.
The various HP forums are also a good place to place adds or watch for used equipment like mats, scopes etc.
Just my .02.
Bob
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I am completely lost when it comes to Service rifles like the AR-15. There are so many models and so many brands that I have not had a chance to research them all (plus there are lots of opinions floating around).
What is the difference between gas/recoil operated guns? How do I know the difference and are they interchangeable?
If I were to pick up a Rock River lower and a White Oak (Match) upper would they just bolt together?
Also is changing the trigger to a match trigger as easy as changing one on a Remington 700?
On the lower. how solid are the collapsible butt stocks? Or is the fixed stock the way to go?
In your opinions what parts need to be changed out in the lower to make it competitive (minus the trigger)?
Cheers
Bret
I am completely lost when it comes to Service rifles like the AR-15. There are so many models and so many brands that I have not had a chance to research them all (plus there are lots of opinions floating around).
What is the difference between gas/recoil operated guns? How do I know the difference and are they interchangeable?
If I were to pick up a Rock River lower and a White Oak (Match) upper would they just bolt together?
Also is changing the trigger to a match trigger as easy as changing one on a Remington 700?
On the lower. how solid are the collapsible butt stocks? Or is the fixed stock the way to go?
In your opinions what parts need to be changed out in the lower to make it competitive (minus the trigger)?
Cheers
Bret
Bret,
You need to do some homework on this HP competition. An AR15 Service Rifle can be either the A2 or the A4 model (the A4 has the iron sights on a removable handle).
There are very specific modifications allowed and if you purchase a RR NM model, it will have the various allowable mods. If you purchase a used rifle from a competitor, it will also have the required mods. Triggers - get the RRA NM model, have White Oak rework it to SR specs period. You are now done with triggers, go and learn how to shoot the rifle.
Only gas operated is going to be allowed so no decision there, only the "Mall Ninga's" will gave the gas piston rifles. Stay away from therm. Also, no collabsible buttstocks allowed strictly the straight fixed model for SR competition.
Uppers and lowers don't "Bolt" together, they have attaching pins that secure the two halves.
Check out RRA website and White Oak, they will have exploded drawings of the A2 NM models. Get a copy of one of the AR15 books like Glen Zidiker's, it will be worth it's weight in questions and answers.
RGDS
Bob
You need to do some homework on this HP competition. An AR15 Service Rifle can be either the A2 or the A4 model (the A4 has the iron sights on a removable handle).
There are very specific modifications allowed and if you purchase a RR NM model, it will have the various allowable mods. If you purchase a used rifle from a competitor, it will also have the required mods. Triggers - get the RRA NM model, have White Oak rework it to SR specs period. You are now done with triggers, go and learn how to shoot the rifle.
Only gas operated is going to be allowed so no decision there, only the "Mall Ninga's" will gave the gas piston rifles. Stay away from therm. Also, no collabsible buttstocks allowed strictly the straight fixed model for SR competition.
Uppers and lowers don't "Bolt" together, they have attaching pins that secure the two halves.
Check out RRA website and White Oak, they will have exploded drawings of the A2 NM models. Get a copy of one of the AR15 books like Glen Zidiker's, it will be worth it's weight in questions and answers.
RGDS
Bob
lots of info here but I'd still add a little
a mill spec lower (solid buttstock) will have all the appropriate parts, and only requires a trigger swap to be acceptable for comp. alternatively RRA makes a reasonably priced NM AR15 (whole gun) that some of my teammates have had success with.
some things to make sure of:
1. make sure you get a 1-8" twist (or faster) barrel in order to shoot the 70-80 grain bullets that are preferred.
2. make sure you get 1/2 or 1/4 minute of angle sights - standard 1 MOA milspec sights wont cut it. In my opinion a new shooter should use 1/2 MOA sights until they advance to the point of needing 1/4 MOA sights.
Mark
a mill spec lower (solid buttstock) will have all the appropriate parts, and only requires a trigger swap to be acceptable for comp. alternatively RRA makes a reasonably priced NM AR15 (whole gun) that some of my teammates have had success with.
some things to make sure of:
1. make sure you get a 1-8" twist (or faster) barrel in order to shoot the 70-80 grain bullets that are preferred.
2. make sure you get 1/2 or 1/4 minute of angle sights - standard 1 MOA milspec sights wont cut it. In my opinion a new shooter should use 1/2 MOA sights until they advance to the point of needing 1/4 MOA sights.
Mark
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
Bret,
Do youself a huge favor and do not buy ANYTHING until you do one or both of the following:
1. Get to a regular HP match and talk to a bunch of the shooters, then be sure to get with a couple of the MA/HM shooters and talk to them about what they use, etc.
2. Get to the National Match forum, register, and hang out there and do some research. You have talked about a couple options that arent even options in the highpower/service rifle world, so you got a little homework to do before you spend money on something that wont even be legal in our game.
if you do that, you will buy right and you will make some good decisions re purchases. And, you will get a lot of useful knowledge that will help you enjoy the game of high power. Plus, you get to meet and shoot with a lot of cool folks that will be more than glad to help you out in any way they can. Trust me, I got started just a few years ago.
John
Do youself a huge favor and do not buy ANYTHING until you do one or both of the following:
1. Get to a regular HP match and talk to a bunch of the shooters, then be sure to get with a couple of the MA/HM shooters and talk to them about what they use, etc.
2. Get to the National Match forum, register, and hang out there and do some research. You have talked about a couple options that arent even options in the highpower/service rifle world, so you got a little homework to do before you spend money on something that wont even be legal in our game.
if you do that, you will buy right and you will make some good decisions re purchases. And, you will get a lot of useful knowledge that will help you enjoy the game of high power. Plus, you get to meet and shoot with a lot of cool folks that will be more than glad to help you out in any way they can. Trust me, I got started just a few years ago.
John
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
Bret,
All the replies above are excellent, but as Mudacat says, don't buy anything until you know what you want. I sounds as though you are not sure if you want a match or service rifle. That is your first choice.
I suggest you contact your state's competitive shooting organization, contact the NRA if you don't know who the state org. is. Most state orgainizations have loaner equipment and run "clinic/matches" or know of clubs that do. Attend a clinic or two, get to know the sport and make your decisions based on your experiences.
Once you know which HP discipline you wish to pursue, we can help with equipment siggestions.
Good Luck,
Scott
All the replies above are excellent, but as Mudacat says, don't buy anything until you know what you want. I sounds as though you are not sure if you want a match or service rifle. That is your first choice.
I suggest you contact your state's competitive shooting organization, contact the NRA if you don't know who the state org. is. Most state orgainizations have loaner equipment and run "clinic/matches" or know of clubs that do. Attend a clinic or two, get to know the sport and make your decisions based on your experiences.
Once you know which HP discipline you wish to pursue, we can help with equipment siggestions.
Good Luck,
Scott
I just downloaded the rule book. Still have some reading to do but this is what I have so far...
It looks like if I use a Rock River lower and a white oak match upper, I will have to use stock sights to shoot "Service Rifle" and if I wanted to put fancy after market sights on it I would have to shoot "Match Rifle"?
More questions to come when I finish reading.
It looks like if I use a Rock River lower and a white oak match upper, I will have to use stock sights to shoot "Service Rifle" and if I wanted to put fancy after market sights on it I would have to shoot "Match Rifle"?
More questions to come when I finish reading.
Bret
You took the first correct step and thats to actually read the rule book for the discapline you want to participate in. Beleive it or not most people do not do this and dont even know the rules. Good on you sir.
You have read that correctly. In order for the rifle to fit into the Service rifle class its basic outside demensions need to look like the M16A2 rifle (plus the flat top A3). anything else in the AR15 class outside of the A2 is a match rifle.
You got it. Keep reading.
RussT
You took the first correct step and thats to actually read the rule book for the discapline you want to participate in. Beleive it or not most people do not do this and dont even know the rules. Good on you sir.
You have read that correctly. In order for the rifle to fit into the Service rifle class its basic outside demensions need to look like the M16A2 rifle (plus the flat top A3). anything else in the AR15 class outside of the A2 is a match rifle.
You got it. Keep reading.
RussT
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
Even with service rifle sights, you cant use a "match rifle" upper. IE, your upper must stay within the dimensions of a service rifle, or the normal AR15. You have to get a "service rifle" upper. If you go with the 24 inch match version, you are in the match rifle class regardless of what sights you run.
IMHO, the only reason to shoot the bloody service rifle is if you want to go distinguished or shoot in CMP service rifle matches. I did that for my first several years of competing, did everything I could do with the SR and now only shoot it when its the one rifle I am allowed to shoot...ie CMP week at Perry, EIC matches, etc. Otherwise, you will see a match rifle in my hands at all other times....no reason to torture myself unless I really want to.
IMHO, the only reason to shoot the bloody service rifle is if you want to go distinguished or shoot in CMP service rifle matches. I did that for my first several years of competing, did everything I could do with the SR and now only shoot it when its the one rifle I am allowed to shoot...ie CMP week at Perry, EIC matches, etc. Otherwise, you will see a match rifle in my hands at all other times....no reason to torture myself unless I really want to.
Ok, read the rule book today. Now it makes a lot more sense about what components make up a service rifle vs a Match rifle.
The one thing I am not sure about is the trigger... Is there a restriction on the trigger other than weight of pull for either class? On the Rock River they offer a lower with the two stage trigger. Is this unacceptable for both classes?
My second question (sure lots of opinions on this) is what is the benefit of shooting SR vs match?
I am sure with a match rifle you can get a lot more fancy extras (sights, barrels, etc) for your rifle to make it shoot better. It seems to me that a match rifle would be easier to shoot because of this?
Cheers
BZR
The one thing I am not sure about is the trigger... Is there a restriction on the trigger other than weight of pull for either class? On the Rock River they offer a lower with the two stage trigger. Is this unacceptable for both classes?
My second question (sure lots of opinions on this) is what is the benefit of shooting SR vs match?
I am sure with a match rifle you can get a lot more fancy extras (sights, barrels, etc) for your rifle to make it shoot better. It seems to me that a match rifle would be easier to shoot because of this?
Cheers
BZR
BZR,
The difference between SR and MR are really quite simple.
With the SR you only have one hill to climb, i.e. learn to shoot the rifle. Work on positions, trigger control, and sight alignment.
The MR is an entirely different animal in that now you have two hills to climb. Learn how to shoot the rifle and also learn how to adjust the rifle. While all those adjustable handstops, cheekpieces, and buttstocks look sexy, you have to learn their use. The adjustment of one item affects the adjustment of something else.
There is also the expense of a MR. They cost more because the sights are more expensive, and the rifle itself is more expensive due to all the adjustable gagets.
I would get an SR and learn to reload and shoot a simple non-adjustable rifle. Once you have mastered the game at this level, now tackle the "I can adjust everything" rifle. That will challenge you for the next several years.
RGDS
Bob
The difference between SR and MR are really quite simple.
With the SR you only have one hill to climb, i.e. learn to shoot the rifle. Work on positions, trigger control, and sight alignment.
The MR is an entirely different animal in that now you have two hills to climb. Learn how to shoot the rifle and also learn how to adjust the rifle. While all those adjustable handstops, cheekpieces, and buttstocks look sexy, you have to learn their use. The adjustment of one item affects the adjustment of something else.
There is also the expense of a MR. They cost more because the sights are more expensive, and the rifle itself is more expensive due to all the adjustable gagets.
I would get an SR and learn to reload and shoot a simple non-adjustable rifle. Once you have mastered the game at this level, now tackle the "I can adjust everything" rifle. That will challenge you for the next several years.
RGDS
Bob
Jonathan Zimmerman
Silver $$ Contributor
To answer the first question, a two stage trigger is acceptable in both service and match rifles classifications (and recomended by most). To answer the second question, a match rifle would be better to start with because you can make it (the rifle) fit you. You have to fit the service rifle, as virtually no external modifications are allowed. So the adjustability of a match rifle is endless. But, (there is always a but) the money comes into play here. The match rifle will be easier to shoot well as you assumed, but it will cost you much more in the initial investment. Some say that you should start off with the best equipment so you can go straight to learning, others don't. The Topic Title had something to do with "Affordable High Power Rifle?", and that would be the reason for an overwhelming response in favor of the service rifle. Hope that helps a little.
Jonathan Zimmerman
Silver $$ Contributor
I didn't read Bob's post until after I wrote mine. I agree 100% with what he said. For simplicity sake the Service Rifle is the way to go, especially if you do not have a coach. It is also the least expensive route as already discussed many times. Where I got the idea that a match rifle is the best place to start came from 'The Rifle Shooter' by G. David Tubb. He is obviously much more qualified than I to tell you anything about anything. But his points are sound in the book, with great explanations about each possible choice. 'The Competitive AR15' by Glen D. Zediker is another great book on this topic. I would deffinately read these two books at a minimum before I went and made up my mind. With all of that being said, I shoot a Service Rifle and am very happy with that. Jonathan
service rifle shooting will be much cheaper to sustain as well as simpler than match rifle. Getting the adjustments right and operating a bolt in rapid fire in IMHO a bit much to expect of a newcomer. A service rifle should be able to take you from your first match to well into high master score range.
Mark
Mark
Thanks everyone for the replies.
Since my primary interest in shooting is F-Open this is going to be a secondary shooting style for me. However I think it is much easier to shoot from a rest vs the various positions in high power, so I am sure I can learn a lot from this and that challenge will be a lot of fun.
If I could I would just go and pick up a Tubb-2000 and be done with it. But I am going to hold back on this one... for now. I am looking to stay in the $1000-1200 range for the rifle then use some more cash for a few more misc. parts (dies/components/sling).
I have been looking into everyone’s recommendations. The White Oak Uppers are $695 for the Service upper and $672 for the Match upper (minus sights).
I have seen match sights that range from $100 up to $700. What would be adequate for a match rifle and what would be ideal? This potential added cost is pushing me to Service Rifle. If I buy a cheap sight and stock I do not see the benefit of going Match vs Service at this point.
Also on recommendations the Rock River complete lower with A2 butt stock and 2 stage match trigger is $380 on their web page. Can I purchase this direct and have it shipped to me FFL here for the transfer? Any recommendations on purchasing the lower? I purchased my F-class action from BAT Machine with a phone call and the name of my local FFL/gun-smith, I am guessing this would work the same?
I currently have all my reloading equipment so all I would need is a new die set and components… and a sling to get started.
Anything else you would recommend?
Cheers
BZR
Since my primary interest in shooting is F-Open this is going to be a secondary shooting style for me. However I think it is much easier to shoot from a rest vs the various positions in high power, so I am sure I can learn a lot from this and that challenge will be a lot of fun.
If I could I would just go and pick up a Tubb-2000 and be done with it. But I am going to hold back on this one... for now. I am looking to stay in the $1000-1200 range for the rifle then use some more cash for a few more misc. parts (dies/components/sling).
I have been looking into everyone’s recommendations. The White Oak Uppers are $695 for the Service upper and $672 for the Match upper (minus sights).
I have seen match sights that range from $100 up to $700. What would be adequate for a match rifle and what would be ideal? This potential added cost is pushing me to Service Rifle. If I buy a cheap sight and stock I do not see the benefit of going Match vs Service at this point.
Also on recommendations the Rock River complete lower with A2 butt stock and 2 stage match trigger is $380 on their web page. Can I purchase this direct and have it shipped to me FFL here for the transfer? Any recommendations on purchasing the lower? I purchased my F-class action from BAT Machine with a phone call and the name of my local FFL/gun-smith, I am guessing this would work the same?
I currently have all my reloading equipment so all I would need is a new die set and components… and a sling to get started.
Anything else you would recommend?
Cheers
BZR
When you said that F-open is your primary focus, that is a world apart from X course with an AR15.
F Class means bolt guns and rests with shots fired with Scopes. X course is all iron sights, humping your gear to the different yard lines, etc. and post front sights! BIG DIFFERENCE.
That said, the AR SR is the cheapest and most straight forward way to learn X course shooting. Loading 223 is cheap and finding "THE" load is really easy, load development may only be a phone call away.
X Course shooting is an art unto itself and developing your positions, sight picture/alignment, NPA, Trigger control, is the name of the game. Learning to twirl those knobs on the rear sight is an entire learning experience as well.
Buy the complete RRA NM model, load your ammo, and work on learning to shoot it. Those rifles will take you to HM classification right out of the box.
Anything else if more cash and a steeper learning curve.
Bob
F Class means bolt guns and rests with shots fired with Scopes. X course is all iron sights, humping your gear to the different yard lines, etc. and post front sights! BIG DIFFERENCE.
That said, the AR SR is the cheapest and most straight forward way to learn X course shooting. Loading 223 is cheap and finding "THE" load is really easy, load development may only be a phone call away.
X Course shooting is an art unto itself and developing your positions, sight picture/alignment, NPA, Trigger control, is the name of the game. Learning to twirl those knobs on the rear sight is an entire learning experience as well.
Buy the complete RRA NM model, load your ammo, and work on learning to shoot it. Those rifles will take you to HM classification right out of the box.
Anything else if more cash and a steeper learning curve.
Bob
To give some more background on all my question.
Yea, AR-15's and service rifles are way out of my league! I only know what I have learned in the past two days! (very little)
Shooting iron sights without a rest is something I have done very little of, but want to learn. I believe this will only help my F-class shooting and hunting.
Plus my 6 oz trigger on my F-class rifle is a far cry from a service rifle...
Venturing off into the unknown right now for some fun...
Right now I have pretty much decided on a service rifle. If I get my SR figured out I will probably try and upgrade to a fancy Match rifle.
As soon as the Christmas rush dies down I will try and pick up a rifle to play with. There is a high-power match here at a local range once a month. I will try and stop in but I am more interested with competing with myself at this point.
Thanks again everyone for the information!
Cheers
BZR
Yea, AR-15's and service rifles are way out of my league! I only know what I have learned in the past two days! (very little)
Shooting iron sights without a rest is something I have done very little of, but want to learn. I believe this will only help my F-class shooting and hunting.
Plus my 6 oz trigger on my F-class rifle is a far cry from a service rifle...
Venturing off into the unknown right now for some fun...
Right now I have pretty much decided on a service rifle. If I get my SR figured out I will probably try and upgrade to a fancy Match rifle.
As soon as the Christmas rush dies down I will try and pick up a rifle to play with. There is a high-power match here at a local range once a month. I will try and stop in but I am more interested with competing with myself at this point.
Thanks again everyone for the information!
Cheers
BZR
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