Advice for gas flame annealing - what is your process?

[riflemonkey]

Hello, riflemonkey here... Just purchased a AGS gas flame annealing unit and I have played with it some. I am annealing norma, hornady, and lapua brass 6.5 prc cases, once shot at this point. I am waiting on some Tempilaq 750 degrees for my testing... Have looked at red glow in dark but seems a little imprecise...

My question is what is your gas flame annealing process ?

For example, I plan the following process:

1 - Aim the flame tip near the bottom of the neck where it meets the shoulder for the case rotation on the machine,
2 - Test with Tempilaq 750 degrees F with a short vertical line to show that the neck reaches 750 degrees F but at 1/2" to 3/4" below the neck the body does not.
3 - Let the cases fall from the machine and air cool slowly
4 - Done. Clean and resize, etc.

I am looking at, rougly, a red neck inside near the top of the neck as the case drops and I have shot with an IR gun and I am seeing 500-600 inside the case neck before it drops. What are your temperature parameters? Also, do you air cool slowly or water cool? Do you check with Tempilaq?

I am really interested in gas flame annealing processes here, I do not have the budget for the induction machines...

Thanks for comments,
-riflemonkey

 

[Straightshooter1]

Hello, riflemonkey here... Just purchased a AGS gas flame annealing unit and I have played with it some. I am annealing norma, hornady, and lapua brass 6.5 prc cases, once shot at this point. I am waiting on some Tempilaq 750 degrees for my testing... Have looked at red glow in dark but seems a little imprecise...

My question is what is your gas flame annealing process ?

For example, I plan the following process:

1 - Aim the flame tip near the bottom of the neck where it meets the shoulder for the case rotation on the machine,
2 - Test with Tempilaq 750 degrees F with a short vertical line to show that the neck reaches 750 degrees F but at 1/2" to 3/4" below the neck the body does not.
3 - Let the cases fall from the machine and air cool slowly
4 - Done. Clean and resize, etc.

I am looking at, rougly, a red neck inside near the top of the neck as the case drops and I have shot with an IR gun and I am seeing 500-600 inside the case neck before it drops. What are your temperature parameters? Also, do you air cool slowly or water cool? Do you check with Tempilaq?

I am really interested in gas flame annealing processes here, I do not have the budget for the induction machines...

Thanks for comments,
-riflemonkey

First, just let me point out that 750°F is not going to do the job of getting your necks properly annealed. I've tested this by taking hardness measurements. The temperature I found that works well is ~ 1,100°F. That temperature can be determine (not precisely, but close enough) by the neck turning from dark dull orange to red for a second or two. Keep in mind that it's temperature + time that are the factors for getting the level of anneal you want.

I anneal my cases with an Annealeez that I've had for many years and I use a swirl flame torch head instead of a pencil flame. The swirl flame does two things for me that I like: it provides a hotter flame to heat the neck up faster so less heat will travel down the case body, and the flame surrounds then neck more so that I get more uniform heating around the neck and shoulder.

The neck is in the middle of the flame and flame bulges past the shoulder-body junction a little. The flame is turned up verily hot and I use a regulator to help keep the flame constant over the time it takes to do all the brass. I don't use Tempilaq, though I've played with it in the past to see how far heat was traveling down the case body.

I have a digital timer I installed on my old Annealeez to get better control over the timing from one session to another. When a case drops into the flame, the flame surrounds the case neck evenly (it's centered) and I set the timing so that the case drops out of the flame when it turn red for a full second plus a fraction (the timing for this can vary depending on the brass and its thickness that your annealing; mine is .308's and 6.5 PRC). When I look for the red glow, it's in a darkened room and it's a distinct red glow, but not particularly bright red.

I've found that you don't have to be really precise with the heat as it not just about the heat. It's about the heat AND the amount of time. That's why I look for the red glow to be there for ~ 1 + a hair more seconds. The over all time my cases are in the flame is ~ 9-10 seconds for this all to happen and the cases are dropped out of the flame. Cases are air cooled by laying them out on a towel. My little pan that catches the cases when they drop out of the flame only hold ~35 cases. So that's when I empty the pan out onto a towel and by the time I finish with the last batch, the first one's I laid on the towel have cooled down and ready for the next step.

Since I bought a hardness tester, I've been able to actually test my results to see what works and what doesn't. My goal was to have my case necks at the same hardness as my virgin Lapua brass . . . after sizing. The hardness/softness you get after annealing doesn't stay there as sizing afterwards increases the hardness by quite a lot (how much it does will depend on the amount of movement the brass is experiencing during the sizing process). I had to get the brass a little softer than my target so that after sizing I had the target hardness reading I was after.

In the end, it's still all about consistency in every aspect of case prep and loading. I get very consistent annealing with my process, having tested the hardness on the circumference of my necks after annealing and sizing. And it appears to give me good results in my chrono data as well as on paper. With the hardness tester, I'm not guessing like I used to do before hand.

 

[riflemonkey]

First, just let me point out that 750°F is not going to do the job of getting your necks properly annealed. I've tested this by taking hardness measurements. The temperature I found that works well is ~ 1,100°F. That temperature can be determine (not precisely, but close enough) by the neck turning from orange to red for a second or two. Keep in mind that it's temperature + time that are the factors for getting the level of anneal you want.

I anneal my cases with an Annealeez that I've had for many years and I use a swirl flame torch head instead of a pencil flame. The swirl flame does two things for me that I like: it provides a hotter flame to heat the neck up faster so less heat will travel down the case body, and the flame surrounds then neck more so that I get more uniform heating around the neck and shoulder.

The neck is in the middle of the flame and flame bulges past the shoulder-body junction a little. The flame is turned up verily hot and I use a regulator to help keep the flame constant over the time it takes to do all the brass. I don't use Tempilaq, though I've played with it in the past to see how far heat was traveling down the case body.

I have a digital timer I installed on my old Annealeez to get better control over the timing from one session to another. When a case drops into the flame, the flame surrounds the case neck evenly (it's centered) and I set the timing so that the case drops out of the flame when it turn red for a full second plus a fraction (the timing for this can vary depending on the brass and its thickness that your annealing; mine is .308's and 6.5 PRC). When I look for the red glow, it's in a darkened room and it's a distinct red glow, but not particularly bright red.

I've found that you don't have to be really precise with the heat as it not just about the heat. It's about the heat AND the amount of time. That's why I look for the red glow to be there for ~ 1 + a hair more seconds. The over all time my cases are in the flame is ~ 9-10 seconds for this all to happen and the cases are dropped out of the flame. Cases are air cooled by laying them out on a towel. My little pan that catches the cases when they drop out of the flame only hold ~35 cases. So that's when I empty the pan out onto a towel and by the time I finish with the last batch, the first one's I laid on the towel have cooled down and ready for the next step.

Since I bought a hardness tester, I've been able to actually test my results to see what works and what doesn't. My goal was to have my case necks at the same hardness as my virgin Lapua brass . . . after sizing. The hardness/softness you get after annealing doesn't stay there as sizing afterwards increases the hardness by quite a lot (how much it does will depend on the amount of movement the brass is experiencing during the sizing process). I had to get the brass a little softer than my target so that after sizing I had the target hardness reading I was after.

In the end, it's still all about consistency in every aspect of case prep and loading. I get very consistent annealing with my process, having tested the hardness on the circumference of my necks after annealing and sizing. And it appears to give me good results in my chrono data as well as on paper. With the hardness tester, I'm not guessing like I used to do before hand.

Awesome.

When I was playing with a few cases, I found a time setting that gets me about a second of red/orange neck before the case drops (lights out). Sounds like this may work... I will double check with the Tempilaq 750 but I have come across other info that confirms what you are saying about peak temperatures. I know its time/temperature and I have heard that using about 750 degrees F actually came from studies where the data point of 750 is the drop off for a brass annealing curve that plots time-temp points on the order of an hour rather than seconds... Since I do not have any hard and accurate data for the procedure I thought I would ask about others (valuable) experience...

Thanks for the input...

 

[dusterdave173]

For me each time I set up I have a batch of "test dummy" brass
You never get the gas flame the exact same so you have to run a bit of brass through the process and get the red glow you are looking for --so use the test dummy brass--play with it for 5 minutes and get it just right--recheck and assure yourself all is ready then--let her rip! Air cool is what I do

 

[Straightshooter1]

Awesome.

When I was playing with a few cases, I found a time setting that gets me about a second of red/orange neck before the case drops (lights out). Sounds like this may work... I will double check with the Tempilaq 750 but I have come across other info that confirms what you are saying about peak temperatures. I know its time/temperature and I have heard that using about 750 degrees F actually came from studies where the data point of 750 is the drop off for a brass annealing curve that plots time-temp points on the order of an hour rather than seconds... Since I do not have any hard and accurate data for the procedure I thought I would ask about others (valuable) experience...

Thanks for the input...

I don't know where the 750°F came from. It may have been an adjustment from the 650°F that's for so long been touted as the temperature to use (e.g. using 650°F Tempilaq). I feel the 650°F came from a misread or misunderstanding of some studies where 650°C was determined to be a good temperature for annealing but was reported as 650°F by a reader of the study. That's a big difference. When you see the necks turn red, that color will certainly tell you that temperature is way more than 750°F.

 

[Fuj]

Two torch heads and run off my home supply of natural gas.

 

[BigGame]

My process is similar to @Straightshooter1 above with the exception of not having tried a swirl flame torch head. I'd be interested to hear more about the swirl head vs. the standard pencil head. Good tip.

 

[Webster]

Hello, riflemonkey here... Just purchased a AGS gas flame annealing unit and I have played with it some. I am annealing norma, hornady, and lapua brass 6.5 prc cases, once shot at this point. I am waiting on some Tempilaq 750 degrees for my testing... Have looked at red glow in dark but seems a little imprecise...

My question is what is your gas flame annealing process ?

For example, I plan the following process:

1 - Aim the flame tip near the bottom of the neck where it meets the shoulder for the case rotation on the machine,
2 - Test with Tempilaq 750 degrees F with a short vertical line to show that the neck reaches 750 degrees F but at 1/2" to 3/4" below the neck the body does not.
3 - Let the cases fall from the machine and air cool slowly
4 - Done. Clean and resize, etc.

I am looking at, rougly, a red neck inside near the top of the neck as the case drops and I have shot with an IR gun and I am seeing 500-600 inside the case neck before it drops. What are your temperature parameters? Also, do you air cool slowly or water cool? Do you check with Tempilaq?

I am really interested in gas flame annealing processes here, I do not have the budget for the induction machines...

Thanks for comments,
-riflemonkey

You don't have to worry about annealing the case body it never gets to an annealing temp. even with the neck red. I have done a 1000 cases with a single flame torch. All the time vs temp VS hardness charts have been put up on this website many times. You don't need Tempilaq of any temp.

 

[TC260]

Since I bought a hardness tester, I've been able to actually test my results to see what works and what doesn't.

What kind of tester did you buy?

 

[Straightshooter1]

What kind of tester did you buy?

Webster Hardness Tester

I know this kind of device is not as accurate as the likes of Vickers testing, but it doesn't need to be. I use it like a comparator, where I'll take a reading from Lapua virgin brass and then duplicate that reading from my processed brass.

It was interesting to me to see the different readings I'd get from different amount of heat, time, different brass (like with softer brass, as in Federal's brass), different amount of sizing.

PS: I had to modify the cylinder that holds the the indenter pin to keep the cylinder from interfering with the case's shoulder (mostly for the likes of a 6.5 PRC where there's a small diameter neck and a large body). Just a little grinding at an angle to easily clear case shoulders.

 

[MikeRu]

Ttry your 750-850F etc and see if your seating pressures stay consistent over several cycles of shoot/clean/anneal/reload. If the seating pressures are going up then add more time. I use a K&M arbor press with a guage. I don’t see no red glow even in the dark.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Ttry your 750-850F etc and see if your seating pressures stay consistent over several cycles of shoot/clean/anneal/reload. If the seating pressures are going up then add more time. I use a K&M arbor press with a guage. I don’t see no red glow even in the dark.

You don't even need to anneal at all if one can minimize the amount of work being done on the brass for each cycle (like controlling the amount of neck tension) and can then have pretty consistent seating pressure over many cycles. I'm sure there are some around here that can attest to that.

 

[TC260]

Webster Hardness Tester

I know this kind of device is not as accurate as the likes of Vickers testing, but it doesn't need to be. I use it like a comparator, where I'll take a reading from Lapua virgin brass and then duplicate that reading from my processed brass.

That's a nicer handheld unit than some of the others I've seen people use. You're right though, it's fine for general comparisons but doesn't have the resolution of an actual microhardness tester.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Skip the Tempilaq. It is not that precise and it is PITA to get off the brass.

Just heat the brass until it glows a dark red with the lights off. That will get you to where you want to be. The point with annealing is not necessarily to hit a specific temperature, it is to get your brass to be consistent from one piece to another. As long as each piece is annealed enough so that you won't get split necks and each piece is annealed to the same level, you will have consistency, which leads to precision.
The other variables, such as powder charge variations, bullet variations, etc, will have much more effect on your group sizes than annealing will, so there is no need to obsess about it.

 

[CharlieNC]

I was unable to achieve reliable measurements with my IR gun. While my results are probably quite variable, "light" annealing to a very faint red in the dark has resolved variable seating force and depth.

 

[Webster]

Hello, riflemonkey here... Just purchased a AGS gas flame annealing unit and I have played with it some. I am annealing norma, hornady, and lapua brass 6.5 prc cases, once shot at this point. I am waiting on some Tempilaq 750 degrees for my testing... Have looked at red glow in dark but seems a little imprecise...

My question is what is your gas flame annealing process ?

For example, I plan the following process:

1 - Aim the flame tip near the bottom of the neck where it meets the shoulder for the case rotation on the machine,
2 - Test with Tempilaq 750 degrees F with a short vertical line to show that the neck reaches 750 degrees F but at 1/2" to 3/4" below the neck the body does not.
3 - Let the cases fall from the machine and air cool slowly
4 - Done. Clean and resize, etc.

I am looking at, rougly, a red neck inside near the top of the neck as the case drops and I have shot with an IR gun and I am seeing 500-600 inside the case neck before it drops. What are your temperature parameters? Also, do you air cool slowly or water cool? Do you check with Tempilaq?

I am really interested in gas flame annealing processes here, I do not have the budget for the induction machines...

Thanks for comments,
-riflemonkey

Red is about 1050-1100F. How are you getting 500-600 with IR?

 

[riflemonkey]

Red is about 1050-1100F. How are you getting 500-600 with IR?

You are correct, I misspoke, the 500-600 F temperatures were shot right after the cases dropped... Sorry.

(Damn riflemonkey...)

 

[chuckshooter]

Redneck annealing testing method, get yourself at least 3 or more pieces of junk brass. Doesn't matter what cartridge as long as they are all the same. 223, 308, 30.06 ect. Take a pair of pliers and squish the neck on the first one. Make a mental note of how hard it was to squish. Annneal the second one to a dull red in the dark. Let it cool or dip it in water doesn't matter. Squish it with a pair of pliers, make a mental note of how hard it was to squish. Anneal the third one to a bright red, let it cool, squish with pair of pliers, now you have a reference between no annealing, dull red and a bright red. I think you will find most people who flame anneall do it to a dull red. That's what 30 plus years of annealling has taught me.

 

[JohnW...ski]

 

[Gray420]

My process is similar to @Straightshooter1 above with the exception of not having tried a swirl flame torch head. I'd be interested to hear more about the swirl head vs. the standard pencil head. Good tip.

So, after reading this post I went ahead and ordered swirl torch head from Amazon and wow this was a game changer. I am using the Ugly annealer which works as expected, but over the couple of years that I have been flame annealing I have had many frustrating battles with dealing with the propane and clogged pencil tip tourches.
4 take always for flame annealing.
1. If your using a pencil tip type head, blow the oil out of it with the compressor before you do a batch. Keeps the flame more consistent.
2. I anneal out in my shop and the in winter it can be in low 40’s and when those 1 pound propane bottles get that cold I learned that the propane compresses and your flame pressure decreases and becomes very inconsistent. I started keeping a bottle in the house.
3. Get a 5lb bottle and a hose. Seems so much easier than messing with the 1lb.
4. Get a swirl flame tip. I did 50 pieces of 7prc brass tonight and it worked beautifully.