Advantages of Neck Turning?

[PatMiles]

Waay too much trouble!

 

[Shynloco]

Sounds to me like someone is searching for either a Silver Bullet to improve their shooting accuracy, or looking for a justification NOT to perform a certain reloading function in a general production rifle (GPR). Based upon my experiences and as has been stated by others, a GPR rifle cannot compete with a custom rifle and in terms of accuracy and it is grossly unrealistic to believe one ever will. Dedicated chambers are just that, "DEDICATED" and a series of preparations of the brass, loads and even the projectiles themselves, matter in term of best accuracy. Those same functions will not necessarily make a GPR rifle shoot more accurately, although I will say has had some minor positive effect. I personally only "clean up" any new brass in my GPR chambers. And if you want to call "cleaning up" brass the same as thing as "turning brass," so be it. But when I turn brass in my custom "dedicated chambers", my goal is to attain a .002 clearance. And depending on the chamber dimensions, that is where I might take .002 - .003 off neck thickness to accommodate that goal of .002 case clearance. And in those cases, it does matter in terms of accuracy, especially in long distance shooting.

Lastly, there is one thing that really effects accuracy and is something many won't talk about. And that is how good a shooter are you really? When the big boys play, reading wind, shooting technique and equipment REALLY matters. You can turn or not turn all the brass you want. But the question then becomes, are you REALLY prepared and up to the task as you repeatedly pull that trigger? Only you and the target down range can answer that question. Happy shootin all!

Alex

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

If this is a 10 shot group... at 100 yards.... with a factory rifle..... STOP!!!!! Don't touch ANYTHING!!!!!

 

[Raythemanroe]

You won't see any accuracy gains by purchasing wind flags or point and shooting whatever runs through the gun... Accuracy is in the details and tuning, neck turning aids in concentricity...

You seem to have a grasp on case prep, adding neck turning shouldn't hurt.. 1000 yard shooting I would add bullet sorting.. I would guess it is more about eliminating the flyers and not huge gains..

Once you have eliminated the variables then move on to powder tune and seating depth tuning..


Ray

 

[PatMiles]

Alex,
Trust me, I'm NOT looking for any "Silver Bullet. If I was I would be throwing money at every whiz bang tool and toy that is out there instead of being here asking questions.

 

[PatMiles]

Ray,
Thanks for the info.

 

[GSPV]

Okay gents let me ask a question and I'm asking this just out of curiosity, why won't I see some advantage out of a factory rifle? If the reason behind neck turning is to help with a more consistent release of the bullet why does it take a custom chambered barrel to take advantage of turning?
Again, I'm asking to learn the reason(s) why.

I don't think that it will help at all in a factory chamber because they are already sloppy.

Now, get a custom barrel, a custom chamber, and all the goodies to go with it and, ya, I'd recommend a clean up. Factory brass QC is pretty good, but it can't compare to the 100% sample size that you can do at home. Just my opinion. Take it FWIW.

 

[Brians356]

This is the first 10 with some of my reloads at 100 yards. Yeah, it's good but I'm looking for good groups at 600, 800, 1000 yards, that's why I bought the Creedmoor.
View attachment 985245

That's about what the reviewers are seeing, and to a man the reviewers are thrilled. One is a former Marine sniper ("Here is my recommendation for those wanting to shoot long range. BUY THIS RIFLE!…for the price you simply cannot beat the value.") Several are long range competitors.

BTW that group's horizontal is better than indicated, you're measuring outside-to-outside it appears.
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[jr600yd]

Two things that will help. First get a good trigger. Be surprised how this one modification can shrink group size. Second is neck turning. The guys are right, in a factory chamber neck turning will not shrink your group size for all the reasons stated. That's not the point of neck turning for a factory chamber. The real reason is to prolong brass life! By removing the "High" spots you will be working the necks less in the sizing die.

So if your not running really hot loads and expanding primer pockets, performing good reloading procedures your brass will last longer. Annealing really helps also.

 

[Endyo]

I'm coming at it more from the statistical side. The typical review of this RPR (there are many online) reports something like: smallest 100-yd 5-shot group: 0.67"; largest 5-shot group: 1.20", 5-group average: 0.75" - 0.87". Just doesn't feel to me like neck turning is the low-hanging fruit to improving accuracy in such a rifle. But there's only one way for the OP to find out for himself.
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OP this is sound advice. The advantages to neck turning are small. As another stated any advantages will be lost in the noise factory rifle or otherwise. Velocity spreads should shrink over a chrono. 3/4MOA groups will still be 3/4MOA groups especially at 100 yards.

You may start to see a distance as you shoot long range, but at that point the wind is going to make your 3/4MOA groups much larger unless you are adept at assessing it.

I believe you will be better suited testing different primers, different seating depths, and maybe most importantly 'neck tension'. The easiest are the first two.

When you get to cracking the neck tension question you'll find your factory chamber likely has too much slop allowing the case neck to stretch too much and factory dies are sizing your brass more than necessary. This creates eccentricity, overworks the necks (work hardens), and shortens brass life. All of which may be non problems if your brass is failing at the primer pocket and depending on your accuracy requirements.

You should be able to get to <1/2MOA accuracy with a match barrel without having to neck turn. To get below that you'll need to address neck tension and neck turning will only be a part of that equation.

 

[Endyo]

Maybe start with a primer pocket uniformer and measure your primer seating depth.. Ignition can aid accuracy.. A factory gun can see gains from turning necks, just don't turn more then what is needed to clean them up.. Throw out the die with the expander and get a bushing die.. Brass life will diminish if you are moving the brass to much...Maybe look at annealing

Ray

Ray,
The primer pockets have been uniformed, flash holes were deburred, case mouths deburred inside and out. I have removed the expander button from my Whidden neck sizer and full length sizer dies. Both are bushing dies (.288").
Just trying to gain some knowledge.


This is the first 10 with some of my reloads at 100 yards. Yeah, it's good but I'm looking for good groups at 600, 800, 1000 yards, that's why I bought the Creedmoor.
View attachment 985245

Pat,

I missed this reply when I posted above. For those ranges listed and your intended purpose I would definitely neck turn. Since you mentioned getting a new barrel I would go with a tighter chamber and start experimenting with "neck tension":

1. Proper sizing (0.001-0.002" under completed cartridge OD)
2. Proper neck thickness (0.003-0.004" chamber clearance)
3. Concentricity (~0.0005")
4. Proper cleaning technique / Inside case neck lubrication
-Wet Tumble vs. Dry
-Graphite Powder or Lube residue

The obvious benefit to turning is more concentric brass I think that's important but I'm finding that's only part of the equation as my groups start to shrink.

FWIW The necks of Hornady Brass I've mic'd has 0.0015" r/o on average. So does Lapua and Norma and others seem to agree the latter two shoot fine. With that said if you're going through all this trouble you might as well be shooting the best brass. Hornady is soft and doesn't last very long. Lapua is tough.

In my opinion the main benefit of neck turning is tuning neck tension.

 

[PatMiles]

Endyo,
Thanks for the info. A great reason to back away from neck turning at this point.
Regarding your other concerns I plan on playing with primers. Right now I'm using Federal 210 primers. A good friend was kind enough to give me 1K Federal GM210M primers and then onto CCI BR2 primers. After that on to different bullet seating depths. Right now I am limited to 2.870" OAL (2.1967" CBTO) due to internal magazine restrictions which leaves me .045" off the lands. I'll eventually try some longer lengths by single loading. I have info from a good friend to modify an AICS magazine to allow the longer length but I have no intention of doing so unless the longer loads work out favorably.
I am holding the velocity at 2800 fps soas not to start blowing out primer pockets. I'm using Berger 140 Hybrids and Hodgdon H4350 powder.
Thanks again!

Onward through the fog!

 

[Brians356]

Regarding your other concerns I plan on playing with primers. ... After that on to different bullet seating depths. Right now I am limited to 2.870" OAL (2.1967" CBTO) due to internal magazine restrictions which leaves me .045" off the lands.

Don't be too concerned with being too far from the lands. There are accuracy nodes at jumps in that range. I would start at .045" and test jumps in .003" increments longer from there. If you prefer to single load anyway, fine, but don't assume you have to crowd the lands to find a nice node. I have found sweet spots as far out as .100" when forced to.

Have you read Erik Cortina's "Long Range Load Development at 100 Yards" thread? I like his method for quickly isolating a bullet jump node, and fine tuning the jump and charge around there.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

I would rather see you select a primer and powder combo known to be good for Creedmore, and stick with them, spending iterative testing time on charge and jump changes.
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[ireload2]

It is not just release force uniformity. When you have a tight neck chamber that is concentric to the bore careful and concentric turning will result in a neck that centers the bullet in the chamber neck on axis. The bullet starts more closely aligned with the bore rather than being launched off axis.

You might get several boxes of ammo of different types and roll a few rounds across a smooth table top. You can normally see .003 run out (wobble of the bullet tip) Turning the case necks to a close concentric fit in the chamber neck will help eliminate the run out.

Okay gents let me ask a question and I'm asking this just out of curiosity, why won't I see some advantage out of a factory rifle? If the reason behind neck turning is to help with a more consistent release of the bullet why does it take a custom chambered barrel to take advantage of turning?
Again, I'm asking to learn the reason(s) why.

 

[Endyo]

I was skeptical when I purchased my force seater initial tests weren't promising. My last match I had an identical batch of ammo (1. 0.0135 Neck 2. Sized/Mandrel to 0.001 under completed OD, etc) Still there were minor differences in neck tension. 30-40PSI = 196-4x / 40-50PSI = 196-5x / 50-60PSI =

It is not just release force uniformity. When you have a tight neck chamber that is concentric to the bore careful and concentric turning will result in a neck that centers the bullet in the chamber neck on axis. The bullet starts more closely aligned with the bore rather than being launched off axis.

You might get several boxes of ammo of different types and roll a few rounds across a smooth table top. You can normally see .003 run out (wobble of the bullet tip) Turning the case necks to a close concentric fit in the chamber neck will help eliminate the run out.

Excellent reply. I didn't even think about that aspect/importance of neck turning.

 

[fourpower]

I am fairly clear on one advantage of neck turning brass to consistent thickness, that being a more consistent release form shot to shot. Are there other advantages?
I have a Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor that I want to shoot the best it can within reason.Within reason being that I don't want to spend big $$$'s on a modification that will return a minute improvement.
Needless to say, the Ruger barrel will not have a chamber as tight as a custom barrel, that being said what are the opinions of the learned folks here on my going down the neck turning path.
As a side note, I do intend to replace the factory barrel with an aftermarket barrel at some point.
Thanks in Advance,
Pat

my 2cents. we have had a big problem getting any brass where I live so I changed how I reload my brass. I neck turn just enough to get close and then I started annealing my brass and also setting up dies for zero head space if rifle will close on the brass. sometimes the rifle will shoot a little better sometimes not but my brass last a very long time! 6.5x47 laupa=on 30 reloads and going strong. 7mm rem mag=12 reloads and going great. all my reloads do great and I haven't loss a piece in 2 years and yes I do shoot a lot and load for a lot of different calibers.

 

['Freak]

I neck turn for factory crap chambers if for no other benefit, when time comes that I’m not turning necks for factory crap chambers, I’ll have already figgered out what and how I’m supposed to be doing this stuff instead trashing a fair number of pretty new Lapua brass during a learn process.


PatMiles,
I’m curious about that Ruger’s chamber, what are your case neck diameters for: (1) fired neck fresh out the chamber, (2) sized neck fresh out assuming the .288” bushing, and (3) loaded neck OD at preferably a couple or more points moving around its circumference. From ‘em I’ll be trying to figger near abouts your chamber’s neck diameter, sized case neck spring-back after using a specified size bushing, case neck wall thickness and wall thickness variation.
Thank ye much,
'Freak

 

[JohnMill]

If you are shooting for 10s & maybe Xs, turning may not be required. If you are shooting for small group it is. If you want wins and records why leave it to chance. If you demand that the bullet is lined up with the bore you will turn.
JOHara has already told you everything you have to do (for competition at least).
John

 

[Brians356]

It is not just release force uniformity. When you have a tight neck chamber that is concentric to the bore careful and concentric turning will result in a neck that centers the bullet in the chamber neck on axis. The bullet starts more closely aligned with the bore rather than being launched off axis.

1. For a tight-neck chamber one has no choice but to neck turn (to create safe clearance.) But even then at least .001" clearance exists (usually .002" or more) so there is no self-centering effect in any case. (* See below.)

2. For the SAAMI (not tight) neck chamber, there is so much clearance (even before turning) that the neck walls don't come close to touching the chamber, and so there is no self-centering effect.

The OP has a SAAMI chamber, so falls under #2.

* Note: Turning necks will usually have some positive effect (depending on how necks are sized, dies used, brass hardness, etc) towards loaded bullet axial concentricity w/ the case body. But, again, in a 3/4 MOA rifle, reaching for absolute bullet concentricity (as if that were even attainable) is far from the lowest-hanging fruit in significantly improving accuracy. Any gains in accuracy will be indistinct in the noise of other factors.
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[PatMiles]

Gents,
Thanks for the recent feedback, good common sense info I was looking for. Looks like I'll be passing on neck sizing my 6.5 brass for now as overworking it gains me nothing. I'll start when I rebarrel it in the future.


Freak,
When I have a minute I'm going to break out my pin gauges and check the RPR neck dimension. I'll post it here when I do it. I have a Remington 700 with a Bartlein barrel which I am curious about also.

Boyd,
I'll reply to your PM later this evening. Just got in from a USPSA match, 95 degrees, and I'm whipped!
Clays match tomorrow morning. Great weekend!