A very respected International shooter for years told me that it takes a good custom action like a RPA Quadlock or Barnard to shoot bad ammunition such as they were issued sometimes but any good action would shoot good ammunition well. I see Palma shooters using all kinds of actions from Remingtons to Quadlocks and they all shoot equally well with their handloads. Everyone seems to agree that the stock is more important in the prone game.
Actions & Accuracy
- Thread starter Terry
- Start date
clowdis said:
Blair,
I think some time, I will put in writing what, in my modest opinion, makes the differences between a commercial action (repeater most of the times), and a specifically designed and manufactured Long Range custom single shot one.
This will not be of a forum post size, nor a book as I do not have writer"s inclination nor skiills, but it will be quite a large article-sized study....
I do not under-estimate the importance of the barrel, nor the stock, nor the sights (nor the holder BTW), but, in every aspects of ris doman of engineering, including the quest for rifle shooting ultimate accuracy, the first 75% are easy to obtain at relatively low cost or efforts, but each extra 1% gain is a challenge in itself and exponential.
We are now on the lasts of those percents.....
Sincerely yours
R.G.C
Hello Robert. The shooter I was referring to was Mid Tompkins and I tend to listen to his thoughts whether or not I agree with them. He's right most of the time and he's been there and done that 
I'd also be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter. Please put me at the top of your list of people to notify when you decide to write them down. As for percents, I am always shooting against Kent Reeve (same gun club) and coming up a point or two shy every time we meet. I don't think I'll ever catch him. I'll be chasing those few points forever and I don't think any kind of equipment will ever get me there, it'll take personal focus and a lot of practice. Have a good week!
Blair
I'd also be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter. Please put me at the top of your list of people to notify when you decide to write them down. As for percents, I am always shooting against Kent Reeve (same gun club) and coming up a point or two shy every time we meet. I don't think I'll ever catch him. I'll be chasing those few points forever and I don't think any kind of equipment will ever get me there, it'll take personal focus and a lot of practice. Have a good week!Blair
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
The truth about accuracy and actions depends on what sport you come from. If you have a rifle that is intended to be used in a type of shooting sport where the shooter supports it, as in prone shooting, 3/8" accuracy will, I believe, win any contest that you enter it in....if you can hold it well enough and judge conditions. If the sport is shooting from the bench, and the competition is at the highest level, considerable more is needed. This is not to say that one sport or rifle is superior, just that they are different.
Some years ago a well known high power shooter, and gunsmith by the name of Creighton Audette included information in one of his articles that helped me to understand the why of what Mid Thompkins told Blair. It has to do with how the case head comes in contact with the bolt face during firing, and how the distribution of support around the face by locking lugs comes into play. Years ago prone shooters were sure that the refinements that were coming along in bench shooting would be wasted in prone, because of the limiting factor of the human element. These days, it is my impression that that opinion may be less common.
Some years ago a well known high power shooter, and gunsmith by the name of Creighton Audette included information in one of his articles that helped me to understand the why of what Mid Thompkins told Blair. It has to do with how the case head comes in contact with the bolt face during firing, and how the distribution of support around the face by locking lugs comes into play. Years ago prone shooters were sure that the refinements that were coming along in bench shooting would be wasted in prone, because of the limiting factor of the human element. These days, it is my impression that that opinion may be less common.
I think another important area of any action is the firing mechanism. Proper spring weights, and a clean no drag journey of the firing pin to the primer, is absolutely important! I know some custom action builders like Jim Borden, and Jerry Stiller pay very close attention to these types of details. I am pretty sure the line worker at Remington or Winchester or were ever could give a hoot. Actually they probably dont even know any different pertaining to this subject.
I have seen some really good shooting Remington actions, but like said before, how much are you willing to spend to race up that Remington action? Thats up to the shooter. Nothing wrong with going that route either, but in this day and age there MAY be better choices. Each situation is probably different, but the facts are clear. I will also say without mentioning any names, that i know of a very competent rifle smith who has told me he has checked several different custom Remington clone actions just to see how true they really were, and most of them were not dead nuts true. I trust this man, as he is a good man and has absolutely nothing to gain from these test except, for personal information. which in turn helps him determine what is absolutely important for his game and what isnt. He also said that the one action that he checked, and barreled that wasnt dead nuts true still shot very well.
I dont think there is any one dominate piece to this puzzle. I think an accurate rifle is a system of important pieces and they all play there own part.
Back to the firing mechanism. I know for a fact, that something as little as a weak firing pin spring can wreak a true 1/4 minute rifles accuracy. That fact alone confirms my belief that a rifle is in fact, a system of important parts, and no one piece is any more important than the other. They all must work together, and work well, to achieve the benchrest accuracy that i am addicted to. Just my thoughts and opinions!! Good topic! Lee
I have seen some really good shooting Remington actions, but like said before, how much are you willing to spend to race up that Remington action? Thats up to the shooter. Nothing wrong with going that route either, but in this day and age there MAY be better choices. Each situation is probably different, but the facts are clear. I will also say without mentioning any names, that i know of a very competent rifle smith who has told me he has checked several different custom Remington clone actions just to see how true they really were, and most of them were not dead nuts true. I trust this man, as he is a good man and has absolutely nothing to gain from these test except, for personal information. which in turn helps him determine what is absolutely important for his game and what isnt. He also said that the one action that he checked, and barreled that wasnt dead nuts true still shot very well.
I dont think there is any one dominate piece to this puzzle. I think an accurate rifle is a system of important pieces and they all play there own part.
Back to the firing mechanism. I know for a fact, that something as little as a weak firing pin spring can wreak a true 1/4 minute rifles accuracy. That fact alone confirms my belief that a rifle is in fact, a system of important parts, and no one piece is any more important than the other. They all must work together, and work well, to achieve the benchrest accuracy that i am addicted to. Just my thoughts and opinions!! Good topic! Lee
Blair,Boyd,Skeetlee et all,
The subject is too vast to reply in a single post, and I feel as if I was fighting quite lonely here .
In the whole egieering world, there are always been concepts and performance differences between consumer mass production and purpose-built equipment.
Blair,it is decided, I will put my concepts on paper, but be patient…
About competent persons quoted here and there, I look forward to meet Kent and the other US Team members next month.
I had the honour to meet Creighton in 1985 as US Palma Team Captain, as well as Mid for the first time…
BTW, what action were they and are all those great shooters all using for prone shooting??. Creighton was shooting a Swing for Palma at the time?.
I know for your major discipline in US, a repeater is one of the musts, but when it comes to single shot disciplines, bench and prone, there are quite other points to consider.
One can mention case head recess, extractor, ejector, firing pin (many detail aspects here), receiver and bolt stiffness, machining tolerances, materials quality, concentricity, barrel shank and method of barrel fitting, trigger, bolt travel, methods of bedding, etc, etc.
There is however an other aspect, and this is ergonomy. I refer to this on Nate G. recent comments and video published elsewhere.
Only mention prone single shot actions. Bench rest is slightly different, and will be an other subject, as if BR actions are near to prone in concept, the requirements differ in some aspects and this is the object of an actual development of mine……
R.G.C
The subject is too vast to reply in a single post, and I feel as if I was fighting quite lonely here .
In the whole egieering world, there are always been concepts and performance differences between consumer mass production and purpose-built equipment.
Blair,it is decided, I will put my concepts on paper, but be patient…
About competent persons quoted here and there, I look forward to meet Kent and the other US Team members next month.
I had the honour to meet Creighton in 1985 as US Palma Team Captain, as well as Mid for the first time…
BTW, what action were they and are all those great shooters all using for prone shooting??. Creighton was shooting a Swing for Palma at the time?.
I know for your major discipline in US, a repeater is one of the musts, but when it comes to single shot disciplines, bench and prone, there are quite other points to consider.
One can mention case head recess, extractor, ejector, firing pin (many detail aspects here), receiver and bolt stiffness, machining tolerances, materials quality, concentricity, barrel shank and method of barrel fitting, trigger, bolt travel, methods of bedding, etc, etc.
There is however an other aspect, and this is ergonomy. I refer to this on Nate G. recent comments and video published elsewhere.
Only mention prone single shot actions. Bench rest is slightly different, and will be an other subject, as if BR actions are near to prone in concept, the requirements differ in some aspects and this is the object of an actual development of mine……
R.G.C
Robert said:
As an interesting side note, my roommate and traveling partner at Camp Perry this year (Peter Laberge) was shooting that rifle! He mentioned several times that it was Creighton's rifle. It still shoots and functions like new and Peter does well with it.
Boyd, the refinements used in benchrest may be wasted in prone shooting but they are still used for the most part. If for no other reason, peace of mind. Loading may be an exception as I sometimes load as many as 500 rounds to take to a match.
The video Robert mentioned is of me shooting a conventional prone string at 1000 yards with my INCH action. With that gun, because the loading port is so far to the rear in relation to the trigger shoe (think sorta-kinda bull-pup-ish), I can load and fire and grab the empty cases without lifting my right elbow. In the prone game, that's a *huge* advantage, especially with a mild-recoil cartridge like my 6BRX (which my INCH is chambered in) that doesn't batter your position much--It'd be the equivalent of a gun that rides the bags very well, and goes right back to the center of the target when you close the bolt and push it back forward. That ergonomic advantage is probably worth a good bit (relatively speaking) of theoretical accuracy advantage. If you could get that position advantage, but it cost you, say, the difference between a .100" and a .250" grouping potential, I'd jump on it for the prone game. A benchrester would come to a different conclusion about the tradeoff, of course.
maybe a little off topic here, but i see no reason why a prone/ sling rifle wouldn't be capable of benchrest accuracy if built properly. I have a friend who shoots a 6ppc for 300 yard prone and that rifle will shoot in the 1's off a front rest and rear bag. I have seen it happen several times. I have often wondered why there aren't more high power shooter shooting a 6ppc for the shorter distances?? I really know very little to nothing about high power other than it hurts my hand like hell trying to shoot in a sling. My buddy set me all up with his 22lr 100 yard rifle in his coat and all the gear. My hand hurt for a week and i only shot 20 rounds. I will also add that all 20 rounds were in the 10 ring!! LOL!! Beginners luck!! high power shooting is a very demanding game in its own right for sure!!!!! No, back to what i was saying. If a rifle is built properly with good components that work well together then there is no real reason why it wouldn't shoot well. I once had a 6,5 creedmoor that would honestly shoot in the zeros 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Most wont believe that, but its true! I also think a lot of high power shooters would be surprised just how well there custom rifles would shoot if they would put them up on the table in a proper bag set up. Lee
skeetlee,
When I test a new barrel I usually do it off bags. I use a cheap front rest and a small bag in the back. Given the round forend on the stock and my non-benchrest shooting abilities I can usually manage 1/2 inch or better 10 round groups at 100 yards. If the prone rifle had a flat forearm and better benchrest setup along with someone who knew more about it than I do I'm sure my rifles would shoot better groups. I think 5 shot 1/4 inch groups would be well within range of a good Palma rifle. As for smaller calibers the 6XC, 6.5 Creedmoor, and the ever popular 6.5-284 are all very popular for midrange as well as 1,000 yards. I did shoot across the course at Perry years ago with a guy that was using a spacegun chambered in 6PPC. Almost everything I see these days will shoot very well regardless of action choice because benchrest gunsmithing is pretty much the rule for all long range prone rifles. I believe also that it's the barrel that makes one rifle better than another. Whether a shooter is able to get the potential from a good setup is another story
When I test a new barrel I usually do it off bags. I use a cheap front rest and a small bag in the back. Given the round forend on the stock and my non-benchrest shooting abilities I can usually manage 1/2 inch or better 10 round groups at 100 yards. If the prone rifle had a flat forearm and better benchrest setup along with someone who knew more about it than I do I'm sure my rifles would shoot better groups. I think 5 shot 1/4 inch groups would be well within range of a good Palma rifle. As for smaller calibers the 6XC, 6.5 Creedmoor, and the ever popular 6.5-284 are all very popular for midrange as well as 1,000 yards. I did shoot across the course at Perry years ago with a guy that was using a spacegun chambered in 6PPC. Almost everything I see these days will shoot very well regardless of action choice because benchrest gunsmithing is pretty much the rule for all long range prone rifles. I believe also that it's the barrel that makes one rifle better than another. Whether a shooter is able to get the potential from a good setup is another story
Flouncer
What the heck it works for me !!
BoydAllen said:
I dunno either. Thats why I mused.
The bolt action hasn't really changed since 1880 or so. In that time we cured Polio, light bulbs came and went, guy walked on the moon five decades ago. That sort of thing. We still use a bolt action derived from before we even had the means to test the metals......
Think about it.
"making a dime phone call at the booth in a cell phone age"
Sorrry, had to throw that in as the opportunity came up.
Any oher actions that were even breifly competitive ?
Break open ?
Rotary breech like a cannon ?
Anything else ?
Another thought is how truly perfect a good action is.
I dunno either. Thats why I mused.
The bolt action hasn't really changed since 1880 or so. In that time we cured Polio, light bulbs came and went, guy walked on the moon five decades ago. That sort of thing. We still use a bolt action derived from before we even had the means to test the metals......
Think about it.
"making a dime phone call at the booth in a cell phone age"
Sorrry, had to throw that in as the opportunity came up.
Any oher actions that were even breifly competitive ?
Break open ?
Rotary breech like a cannon ?
Anything else ?
Another thought is how truly perfect a good action is.
[/quote]
Flouncer
Repeater bolt actions have not much changed since end of the century before last (some designs even regressed, but there is only one PP Mauser as there is a JM Browning!!)….
All basis of modern steel industry were already applied at that time. 95 and 98 Mausers receivers were made from the 4140 (Werkstoff.Nr 1.7227), as many are still today..
Single shot target actions have very much evolved, and I personally consider a model of 30 years old concept is now quite obsolete. Not to say they are not performing to accepted standards, simply the quest for extreme accuracy bring new concepts ahead….As those new concepts have to prove their value in winning matches, acceptance is extremely slow, and this as well as received ideas and conservatism slow the acceptance even more.
On your dissertation about technologies development, I will just take
those concerning actions:
-Breech open: over its recognised lack of accuracy potential, if it is easy to load standing, imagine how it would be o a firing line in prone position?.. Not to mention shooting with a bipod or on bags!…..And what about swapping or rebarreling?..Ah…I forgot; How to fix a scope, or even rearsights?.
-Artillery ‘bolt’ (I do not exactly know how to name it, as it is either rotary or sliding)… The firing pin need to be long enough to allow for a spring and a triggering system.
The length of a rifle bolt is about same as the one of a medium-calibre gun, so, why not make everything compact into a plain cylinder?.
You ask for any ideas…I think there has been many since, some rational, some completely odd…. Maybe you have some of yours to bring into the debate?.
On your conclusion: perfection is not this world’s.
R.G.C
The bolt action hasn't really changed since 1880 or so. In that time we cured Polio, light bulbs came and went, guy walked on the moon five decades ago. That sort of thing. We still use a bolt action derived from before we even had the means to test the metals......
Think about it.
"making a dime phone call at the booth in a cell phone age"
Sorrry, had to throw that in as the opportunity came up.
Any oher actions that were even breifly competitive ?
Break open ?
Rotary breech like a cannon ?
Anything else ?
Another thought is how truly perfect a good action is.
[/quote]
Flouncer
Repeater bolt actions have not much changed since end of the century before last (some designs even regressed, but there is only one PP Mauser as there is a JM Browning!!)….
All basis of modern steel industry were already applied at that time. 95 and 98 Mausers receivers were made from the 4140 (Werkstoff.Nr 1.7227), as many are still today..
Single shot target actions have very much evolved, and I personally consider a model of 30 years old concept is now quite obsolete. Not to say they are not performing to accepted standards, simply the quest for extreme accuracy bring new concepts ahead….As those new concepts have to prove their value in winning matches, acceptance is extremely slow, and this as well as received ideas and conservatism slow the acceptance even more.
On your dissertation about technologies development, I will just take
those concerning actions:
-Breech open: over its recognised lack of accuracy potential, if it is easy to load standing, imagine how it would be o a firing line in prone position?.. Not to mention shooting with a bipod or on bags!…..And what about swapping or rebarreling?..Ah…I forgot; How to fix a scope, or even rearsights?.
-Artillery ‘bolt’ (I do not exactly know how to name it, as it is either rotary or sliding)… The firing pin need to be long enough to allow for a spring and a triggering system.
The length of a rifle bolt is about same as the one of a medium-calibre gun, so, why not make everything compact into a plain cylinder?.
You ask for any ideas…I think there has been many since, some rational, some completely odd…. Maybe you have some of yours to bring into the debate?.
On your conclusion: perfection is not this world’s.
R.G.C
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
BoydAllen said:
.025" sounds pretty good to me... Mine required .080" to clean it up-yikes! All work done by a very competent BR gunsmith.
In the end, it is still a flexible Remington action. I wouldn't intentionally build a target rifle on one with so many good choices available for the same money in the custom market.
Getting back to the original question'
Greg Walley AKA Kelblys; I'm sure he was talking BEnchrest.
Maybe i'm getting too old.
I remember that having a rifle {factory } that shot 1 inch was a keeper.
Now threy are turning rifles out that are better but.. Still not benchrest quality.
You can't compare apples to oranges.
The course rifle has to be loose for the rapid fire, the Benchrest action is generaly pretty tight to get the Case back into a more accurate alignment.
Factory actions are sloppy to be used in many weather conditions.
I'm sure Greg was referring to Benchrest.
Greg Walley AKA Kelblys; I'm sure he was talking BEnchrest.
Maybe i'm getting too old.
I remember that having a rifle {factory } that shot 1 inch was a keeper.
Now threy are turning rifles out that are better but.. Still not benchrest quality.
You can't compare apples to oranges.
The course rifle has to be loose for the rapid fire, the Benchrest action is generaly pretty tight to get the Case back into a more accurate alignment.
Factory actions are sloppy to be used in many weather conditions.
I'm sure Greg was referring to Benchrest.
I,m no gunsmith, benchrest guru or expert, but I thought it depends on what discipline are you talking about.
1000yd BR shooters say that their gear has to be the best as to them, accuraccy is 95% of the game. In light gun they need an action which cycles super fast so they can get their shots of every 3-4 seconds or so without upsetting rifle in the bags and be able to hold a 7lb barrel without too much flex, often using very high pressure loads.
In Heavy Gun, they will need the best there is if they dont have barrel blocks as they have to support super heavy barrels and get 10 shots off in the time it takes to read this sentence.
An F class shooter needs an action which will cycle smooth enough with warm loads that ejecting a round doesnt upset the rifle in the bags too much. In places with electronic targets, like Australia, cycle speed might be important, but definitely not so in places like U.K, where they shoot 2-3 people to a target and you have a long time between shots.
But in F class with the 22lb weight limit, there is a lot of barrel weight hanging off the action, often with bigger recoiling cartridges, so stiffness and bedding play a part.
In full bore or Palma, ergonomics might be the key point, hence the port locations of an Inch action.
The best 5 shot group I have shot at 500yds has been with my 308 Rem 700 Hunting rifle, but would I use this as my main F class or 1000yd BR rifle, no, I would use my bigger dollar custom actions which havent shot a lucky group but are consistant.
1000yd BR shooters say that their gear has to be the best as to them, accuraccy is 95% of the game. In light gun they need an action which cycles super fast so they can get their shots of every 3-4 seconds or so without upsetting rifle in the bags and be able to hold a 7lb barrel without too much flex, often using very high pressure loads.
In Heavy Gun, they will need the best there is if they dont have barrel blocks as they have to support super heavy barrels and get 10 shots off in the time it takes to read this sentence.
An F class shooter needs an action which will cycle smooth enough with warm loads that ejecting a round doesnt upset the rifle in the bags too much. In places with electronic targets, like Australia, cycle speed might be important, but definitely not so in places like U.K, where they shoot 2-3 people to a target and you have a long time between shots.
But in F class with the 22lb weight limit, there is a lot of barrel weight hanging off the action, often with bigger recoiling cartridges, so stiffness and bedding play a part.
In full bore or Palma, ergonomics might be the key point, hence the port locations of an Inch action.
The best 5 shot group I have shot at 500yds has been with my 308 Rem 700 Hunting rifle, but would I use this as my main F class or 1000yd BR rifle, no, I would use my bigger dollar custom actions which havent shot a lucky group but are consistant.
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