Actions & Accuracy
- Thread starter Terry
- Start date
Unlike many (or most it seems), I shoot two Win. push-feed model 70s for Palma and Long Range. Much the same as many before me when Winchester actually made match rifles. They have been stellar for me but they are trued a bit with tuned or aftermarket match triggers, Speed-loc firing pins/cocking pieces and springs. I compete against many custom actions - 2-lug, 3-lug, 4-lug, etc. and manage to put them where they need to go out to 1000 yds. a good portion of the time. I am sure that the truest, most robust custom actions - well 'smithed/ stocked and barreled would beat me off the bench - but I do not believe by much.
For the coat and sling crowd appropriate let-off is the key, and that means trigger time and technique.
I agree with your friend. That said, at some point I will have a rifle with said custom action some day!
For the coat and sling crowd appropriate let-off is the key, and that means trigger time and technique.
I agree with your friend. That said, at some point I will have a rifle with said custom action some day!
Terry: Naturally not everyone will agree, but I also believe the most important "part" of a rifle related to accuracy is the quality of the barrel, just as the most important part of the ammunition is the quality of the bullet. I took the plunge about a year ago & got my first custom action, a Bat SV fitted with both Bartlein & Krieger barrels, chambered in 6ppc. Also have an older Remington 700 short-action that has been trued, with both Krieger & an older Shilen barrels, also chambered in 6ppc. I've compared them side-by-side, under identical conditions, and at the level of my abilities cannot say one rifle is more or less accurate than the other. Someone at the level of Tony Boyer and the other top benchrest competitors could tell the difference, I'm sure, but I cannot. So, I think the answer to your question would be based to a large degree on the abilities of the person behind the gun. The Bat is without a doubt "nicer" than the Remington: smoother operating, closer tolerances, etc. Do I regret getting the Bat? No. Do I still like and use the Remington? Yes. 
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
The rub is that by the time you have paid someone to completely true up a factory action, you would have been better off just selling the factory action and investing in a custom one. The other issue is that unless you know who trued a factory action, it is possible that the work was not done to the highest of standards, and there is no easy way to tell, so when a rifle that is so described is offered for sale, it cannot be purchased with the same confidence that one that has a custom action can. I do agree as to the importance of barrel quality, but, in my view, accuracy is a weakest link sort of thing, and I prefer that I hold that position, rather than some part of my equipment. ;D
fullersson
B&B Gunworks bbgunworks.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I-c-HSHFas&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL28FB6842D5280FE2
If you watch the video above I believe it shows the benefit of a custom action. I don't believe a custom action is anymore accurate than any other action that has been properly accurized. That being said (in my opinion) there is more too it than pure accuracy. What I mean by that is stuff like bolt lift, lock time, and all the other stuff that you get with custom actions. I shoot a Savage Target Action and in good conditions were fast shooting isn't required I hold my own pretty well, but when everything is going crazy and the boys with the custom actions can reload a round without disturbing the gun in the bags and get a shot off before I can get back onto the bullseye then I believe they have the advantage. Just my opinion, Brian.
If you watch the video above I believe it shows the benefit of a custom action. I don't believe a custom action is anymore accurate than any other action that has been properly accurized. That being said (in my opinion) there is more too it than pure accuracy. What I mean by that is stuff like bolt lift, lock time, and all the other stuff that you get with custom actions. I shoot a Savage Target Action and in good conditions were fast shooting isn't required I hold my own pretty well, but when everything is going crazy and the boys with the custom actions can reload a round without disturbing the gun in the bags and get a shot off before I can get back onto the bullseye then I believe they have the advantage. Just my opinion, Brian.
A few years ago the Long Range National was won by someone shooting a Mauser Action. It had been worked over so trued, good lock time, good trigger, etc. The custom actions had nothing on that Mauser. If you already have an action, it is less expensive to re-work it into something competitive. If you don't, buy a custom action.
Barrels, chambering, and bullets make all the difference. There is also the small matter of shooter skill....
In everything but Bench Rest, the shooter is 95% and the equipment 5%.
Barrels, chambering, and bullets make all the difference. There is also the small matter of shooter skill....
In everything but Bench Rest, the shooter is 95% and the equipment 5%.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Matt,
Prone shooters have a set of skills that I do not possess. Having said that, I would point out that this applies to probably 95% of all shooters, which is why it is so uncommon to see someone testing his loads from this position. Additionally, average accuracy, and expectations have risen in the last 20 years. These days, if I am involved in a rifle build, in one of the smaller calibers, I am looking for quarter inch performance, and not just a wallet group. This can be done with a reworked Remington, or one of the clones, but I can't remember if I have ever seen this done with a Mauser action. What do you use?
Boyd
Prone shooters have a set of skills that I do not possess. Having said that, I would point out that this applies to probably 95% of all shooters, which is why it is so uncommon to see someone testing his loads from this position. Additionally, average accuracy, and expectations have risen in the last 20 years. These days, if I am involved in a rifle build, in one of the smaller calibers, I am looking for quarter inch performance, and not just a wallet group. This can be done with a reworked Remington, or one of the clones, but I can't remember if I have ever seen this done with a Mauser action. What do you use?
Boyd
If you expect a factory action to shoot with a custom, it can, but you can't cut any corners in the action work and the work must be at least as good as that of the custom. Do all the work and you have basically the same money invested in a factory action as in a custom. In the end, while it may shoot with the custom, it won't sell with it. With all else being equal, the custom will be worth twice that of the trued factory.--Mike Ezell
Boyd:
I am a sling shooter.. My actions are Win 70, Savage Target, a Custom, and (yes) Mauser. The Mauser is an Belgian FN made in the 1960s. It is very well made, and is clearly not a military version. These are all mid range, long range, and Palma guns.
I agree with your point that standards have risen in the last 20 years. I would also agree that a Mauser is not a good starting point today. There are far better choices. However a commercial Mauser can be turned into a very fine shooting rifle with the right amount of work. I had the FN Mauser, so I used it. Its a 6.5x55 Long Range gun and gives up nothing to a gun built on a custom action.
I'm not suggesting anyone should go this route. I'm merely pointing out that most actions, carefully set up can become a good rifle.
The Savage Target Action with its floating bolt head is amazing. I have done nothing to this action. I took it out of the box, screwed a pre-threaded, pre-chambered barrel on it, bedded it correctly and it will shoot x-ring all day. I may not, but it can. It is the only action I have that has had no special work done, and it shoots great.
Custom actions are jewels of precision, are a joy to own, and they shoot well. There is clearly an important place for these.
I would still place barrels, chambering, and bedding ahead of actions in the accuracy mix.
Matt
I am a sling shooter.. My actions are Win 70, Savage Target, a Custom, and (yes) Mauser. The Mauser is an Belgian FN made in the 1960s. It is very well made, and is clearly not a military version. These are all mid range, long range, and Palma guns.
I agree with your point that standards have risen in the last 20 years. I would also agree that a Mauser is not a good starting point today. There are far better choices. However a commercial Mauser can be turned into a very fine shooting rifle with the right amount of work. I had the FN Mauser, so I used it. Its a 6.5x55 Long Range gun and gives up nothing to a gun built on a custom action.
I'm not suggesting anyone should go this route. I'm merely pointing out that most actions, carefully set up can become a good rifle.
The Savage Target Action with its floating bolt head is amazing. I have done nothing to this action. I took it out of the box, screwed a pre-threaded, pre-chambered barrel on it, bedded it correctly and it will shoot x-ring all day. I may not, but it can. It is the only action I have that has had no special work done, and it shoots great.
Custom actions are jewels of precision, are a joy to own, and they shoot well. There is clearly an important place for these.
I would still place barrels, chambering, and bedding ahead of actions in the accuracy mix.
Matt
The Action is the hart of the rifle.
they will all go bang. most of the custom action came about to make a stiffer action with less flex.
made for better bedding and better scope mounting which all led to a more consistantly accurate rifle.
and it still holds true..but with so many custom actions and good factory actions.
you wonder if that was lost . or everything else has changed where a stout stiff action is no longer needed.
like better stocks,glue in,beter scopes and mounts ect.
they will all go bang. most of the custom action came about to make a stiffer action with less flex.
made for better bedding and better scope mounting which all led to a more consistantly accurate rifle.
and it still holds true..but with so many custom actions and good factory actions.
you wonder if that was lost . or everything else has changed where a stout stiff action is no longer needed.
like better stocks,glue in,beter scopes and mounts ect.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
When planning a project, with anything less than a top grade target action, the selection of parts to go with the action favors one of the Remington clones. Trigger and stock selection alone make this obvious. If you think that factory actions are straight, I suggest that you talk to someone who fully blueprints them. One friend had to have the receiver threads on a Remington opened .025 to get them to clean up straight. While I agree that good shooting rifles can be built on a variety of actions, I think that given the total cost of any complete rifle, starting with the wrong action would seem to me to be false economy, unless you do all of your own work. I freely admit that I probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in prone position, holding the rifle, but on the other hand how well can one do with a half minute rifle in that sort of competition, and how does that level of accuracy rate when looking at well built varmint rifles?
In my opinion using other than a custom action for Benchrest shooting is akin to trying to win a Nascar race using a "flat head" Ford engine. These engines were good in their day, but their day has passed. One of the best at blue printing a Remington action is Mr. Bob Brackney. He now shoots custom actions in most BR events. Enuf said. Good shooting...James
I guess since were talking about actions,i was wondering about the trend for short and small dia actions in benchrest, like the bat sv and some others..other than saving weight.
I read somewhere that you could flex or distort a rem 700 action some .030+" just by miss tightened screws and improper bedding.
I wonder about the smaller BR actions, like flex and i have heard some firing pin troubles ect ect.
I like these smaller actions but i do wonder about it.
I'm not bashing the rem 700,I have had a few trued(not complete blueprint) with a comp recoil lug and a ss match barrel and they allways shot great, and i would not be afraid to barrel another one. and i would for a hunting rifle.
I have gone the custom action route several times now.
I read somewhere that you could flex or distort a rem 700 action some .030+" just by miss tightened screws and improper bedding.
I wonder about the smaller BR actions, like flex and i have heard some firing pin troubles ect ect.
I like these smaller actions but i do wonder about it.
I'm not bashing the rem 700,I have had a few trued(not complete blueprint) with a comp recoil lug and a ss match barrel and they allways shot great, and i would not be afraid to barrel another one. and i would for a hunting rifle.
I have gone the custom action route several times now.
As 82Boy said,
"A couple of weeks ago at a NBRSA match, I got into a conversation with Greg Wally (Kelby's) about actions as we was sitting around cleaning our guns between relays. He told me that what it all comes down to is "bullets and barrels." The action has little to do with it all. " This is the cold honest truth.
Greg has chambered every barrel I own, and I respect his knowledge and skill level 100%. Having said that, the consistency of a custom action can't be discounted either. Case in point: I bought a Kelbly Panda action made in 1998. I also own the 1st Big Bore Panda action with an integral 20 moa rail made in 2008, and Kelbly now markets this action as their "F-class action". I'm a sling/coat shooter, so I don't possess the really fine skills necessary for B-R shooting, but my point to all of this is I inadvertently swapped bolts on my two rifles one day and they both fired and functioned flawlessly. The only thing that gave away my screw-up is one of the bolts has a TM ejector, the other doesn't. There is more to a custom action than stiffness, precision machine over the long hall can't be discounted.
i hope this helps,
Lloyd
"A couple of weeks ago at a NBRSA match, I got into a conversation with Greg Wally (Kelby's) about actions as we was sitting around cleaning our guns between relays. He told me that what it all comes down to is "bullets and barrels." The action has little to do with it all. " This is the cold honest truth.
Greg has chambered every barrel I own, and I respect his knowledge and skill level 100%. Having said that, the consistency of a custom action can't be discounted either. Case in point: I bought a Kelbly Panda action made in 1998. I also own the 1st Big Bore Panda action with an integral 20 moa rail made in 2008, and Kelbly now markets this action as their "F-class action". I'm a sling/coat shooter, so I don't possess the really fine skills necessary for B-R shooting, but my point to all of this is I inadvertently swapped bolts on my two rifles one day and they both fired and functioned flawlessly. The only thing that gave away my screw-up is one of the bolts has a TM ejector, the other doesn't. There is more to a custom action than stiffness, precision machine over the long hall can't be discounted.
i hope this helps,
Lloyd
The barrel with precision chamber is going to make the single biggest improvment on a factory out of the box rifle. Quality loads with good bullets would be second. after that any improvements will be smaller unless there is a major problem in the stock or action. Bedding is cheap to do. You can't take a rem crappy barrel and screw it in a custom action and start shooting .200" groups. That is my opinion.
The answer is No. The action must be true and square to get the barrel to accept the round for maximum accuracy. That doesn't happen with a stock rifles action .
Once in a while it does. Thats rare. The factory rifle off the line is better then ever
But one minute of angle accuiracy is all one should expect. Even if the barrel and stock are close to being perfect , If the action is not true it won't shoot well.
The barrel must shoulder up true and square, If it isn't then the round will go in a tad off center and effect accuracy.
Greg is a good smith but I think the statement was out of context.
Greg was probably referring to accuracy with a really good action like the stolle thats produced at Kelblys. Benchrest isn't easy to get.
Once in a while it does. Thats rare. The factory rifle off the line is better then ever
But one minute of angle accuiracy is all one should expect. Even if the barrel and stock are close to being perfect , If the action is not true it won't shoot well.
The barrel must shoulder up true and square, If it isn't then the round will go in a tad off center and effect accuracy.
Greg is a good smith but I think the statement was out of context.
Greg was probably referring to accuracy with a really good action like the stolle thats produced at Kelblys. Benchrest isn't easy to get.
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