Action strength

[Surgikill]

Hey guys. I am now to the board here and relatively new to long range shooting. I am looking into building a 6mmbr Norma and want some of your input on the subject. I am a college kid so I am keeping costs low. I want to use a CZ 550 action. I have a CZ 550 in .308 Winchester and it performs well. The only concern I have is action strength. I know that many of the aftermarket actions like surgeon and stiller are very beefy. The 550 is a strong action IMHO but I want to make sure that it can handle the barrel I am choosing. I wish to use a straight 1.25" contour Krieger barrel that is 26" long. Krieger estimates that this barrel weighs about 10 pounds. Will having such a heavy barrel stress the action too much? Does anybody have any experience with this?

Thank you for the help.

 

[dkhunt14]

I have seen them heavy 30" 1.250 barrels hung on Remington 700 actions. They usually bed a couple of inches in front of the recoil lug. I am not sure about a CZ action. If i was hanging that beefy of a barrel it would be on a BAT or some single shot custom. At 26 inches it will help a little over a 30".

 

[Surgikill]

I have seen them heavy 30" 1.250 barrels hung on Remington 700 actions. They usually bed a couple of inches in front of the recoil lug. I am not sure about a CZ action. If i was hanging that beefy of a barrel it would be on a BAT or some single shot custom. At 26 inches it will help a little over a 30".

I'l attach a picture of a CZ action. I don't have the cash for a custom action right now so I am going to work with something a little more manageable. If it helps the stock CZ from the factory that I own has a 26" mtu contour and it works fine. It has a very large recoil lug in the front. The part I am worried about is the right side where the ejector port is. That has the least amount of material.

Also, how did those Remington's shoot? If they shot well then I wouldn't worry, but I don't want to be shooting a wet noodle.

 

[TonyR]

I think that barrel will weigh somewhat less than 10 pounds. Here is a link to some softare that calculates barrel stiffness and weigh:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/software.htm

I had a Remington 700 Short Action that had been converted to single shot and it was plenty stiff enough for a 31 inch straight 1.250 inch 284 barrel without any bedding in front of the receiver.

 

[Surgikill]

I think that barrel will weigh somewhat less than 10 pounds. Here is a link to some softare that calculates barrel stiffness and weigh:
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/software.htm

I had a Remington 700 Short Action that had been converted to single shot and it was plenty stiff enough for a 31 inch straight 1.250 inch 284 barrel without any bedding in front of the receiver.

Thank you for that software. It is very interesting. You are correct about the barrel weight. It would come out around 8.5 lbs without fluting.

 

[johara1]

A simple suggestion, a barrel block and float the action....... jim

 

[dkhunt14]

A simple suggestion, a barrel block and float the action....... jim

Yeah i thought about that too, but i just don't like barrel blocks on light guns. Just doesn't seem to work as good as heavy guns.

 

[GSPV]

From an economic point of view, I'd say that you'd be better off selling the CZ and buying a Savage action, then a prefit barrel.

The upfront cash outlay will probably be the same or maybe a tad more. But, if you want to sell it, you'll be able to. The CZ, not so much.

 

[Surgikill]

From an economic point of view, I'd say that you'd be better off selling the CZ and buying a Savage action, then a prefit barrel.

The upfront cash outlay will probably be the same or maybe a tad more. But, if you want to sell it, you'll be able to. The CZ, not so much.

I do agree that the savage will have more versatility and more aftermarket components, however two things that really bother me about that action are the pushbutton extractor and the non integral recoil lug. The cz has both of these, as well as a very light single set trigger. I am just partial to mauser derivative actions, and am very fond of the cz. I have never shot a Savage, so before I buy one I would like to shoot it just to make sure I like it.

 

[GSPV]

1. Trigger.
2. Extractor/ejector (pin?)
3. Recoil lug

1. Check out a target Accutrigger. I shoot a Jewell benchrest trigger at 1.5 ounces all the time and I'm good with the Accutrigger in most cases.

2. If I was using a bolt action in combat or on dangerous game, I might prefer the Mauser system. For anything that you'll use a 6 BR for, the Savage's system will be fine. 1,000's of competition shooters use them every weekend. If it was unreliable for the purpose, they wouldn't be using it.

3. The Savage and Remington 700 actions both use the same design recoil lug. As long as it's flat, you're not going to see an issue...especially since you're not talking about pro-level short-range competitive benchrest here.

Bottom line: You're going to spend more money on the CZ in the end.

While I'm thinking about it, if you go to have the barrel chambered, make sure your gunsmith can handle the metric threads on the action. Some don't want to mess with it.

I have a Savage, a Stolle Grizzly, two Bordens, a Lawton, a Tikka, and a Model 70.

The Savage has some good points and some bad points. For someone on a budget, they are hard to beat.

 

[johara1]

Matt, i'm not talking a squeeze block..... I see some shoot excellent on short range guns. .... jim

 

[BoydAllen]

The BR is a cartridge that is capable of accuracy that is below a quarter inch for five shots. Mauser actions are fine designs, but not for this application. Build it, and compare the results to the same barrel on a Remington or Savage action with the same quality chambering and loading, and you will find out what I am talking about. You are ignoring all of the progress that has taken place in the accuracy game since Mike Walker designed the 722 (the early equivalent of today's short action 700). As someone else mentioned, if you ever decide to move on, prepare yourself for the the probability that lack of enthusiasm for your action will hit you right in the pocket book. On the single set issue, there are reasons that these have not found a place in benchrest, vibration, and speed.

 

[Surgikill]

The BR is a cartridge that is capable of accuracy that is below a quarter inch for five shots. Mauser actions are fine designs, but not for this application. Build it, and compare the results to the same barrel on a Remington or Savage action with the same quality chambering and loading, and you will find out what I am talking about. You are ignoring all of the progress that has taken place in the accuracy game since Mike Walker designed the 722 (the early equivalent of today's short action 700). As someone else mentioned, if you ever decide to move on, prepare yourself for the the probability that lack of enthusiasm for your action will hit you right in the pocket book. On the single set issue, there are reasons that these have not found a place in benchrest, vibration, and speed.

From my personal experience my stock CZ has outperformed a Remington 5r. Maybe they are all lucky shots, who knows. If I buy a Remington action it will have to be trued just like the CZ action. I know some gunsmiths aren't comfortable working with the metric threads. I do not sell any of my firearms so I am not worried about resale value. I have never seen anybody try CZ actions or the like on long range rigs. Maybe that's because they don't shoot well or maybe it's just because nobody has had the enthusiasm and just decided to do what everybody else has done.

If you want to know why I don't like the Remington actions I will outline it below.

1) Round receiver: It is much easier to manufacture but it will also torque as the bullet moves down the barrel. The screws do prevent this but I feel that a square receiver is stiffer and prevents the torquing.

2) Trigger: If I was to use a Remington action I would have to spend around 300 for an aftermarket trigger that will be able to get down to the correct weight (This is not a problem with the savage)

3) Recoil lug: I am not a fan of the tiny recoil lug sandwiched between the barrel and receiver. It just seems like a way of cheaping out on manufacturing.

4)Pushbutton extractor: For starters I don't like this because it throws the brass and I can't just drop it in a neat pile next to the gun like a fixed blade. It also applies pressure to the base of the cartridge, potentially pushing it off center in the chamber which may or may not cause the bullet to engage the rifling at an angle.

5) Brazed bolt: Another way of cheaping out on manufacturing.

6) Small rear tang: This doesn't seem to provide any place for the rear of the action to bed. It is small, and doesn't exactly fit down into the action. Also another way of cheaping out on the manufacturing.

Maybe some of these are stupid, but these are the reasons I don't like those style actions. The savage doesn't have the trigger problem of the remington, but just about everything else is identical. If you could provide me with some hard proof that the cz action or any mauser derivative is horrible for long range I would be more than willing to look at it. Correct me if I am wrong, but 90% of a gun's accuracy has to do with the barrel being fit and machined correctly, right?

 

[BoydAllen]

Have you seen a Mauser in a competition equipment list lately? It sounds like you are set on your course. Come back with your results. I will be just as happy as you if I am wrong. Good luck with your project. BTW the price that you quoted for a Jewel trigger seems to be a bit steep. Bruno's has them for about $235 with safety and bolt release. Personally I don't have much use for safeties on bench rifles, so the cost that way would be around $190.

 

[dkhunt14]

I believe that the trueness of the action along with good pillar bedding has a lot to do with accuracy also. On my BAT they don't have a recoil lug. Just a little notch milled into the bottom. Shot them in a 300 Weatherby and 300 WSM and recoil doesn't seem to bother it. I also think the hole cut into the action for a repeater hurts accuracy especially when hanging a long heavy barrel on it. On triggers a jewel BR trigger costs the same for a Bat or rem. My Bats have a push pin ejector and lay the brass on a neat pile on a towel. The kind of mechanical ejectors I have seen like on a mauser throw them wildly by the way you pull the bolt back. Usually off the bench and dinging the necks. I have seen a lot of 1000 yard guns with Rem. actions and 30 inch barrels hanging from them. They do win so I don't think the ejector or round hurts any. If you shoot the bullets 10 in the rifling a ejector won't push bullet.

 

[Surgikill]

I believe that the trueness of the action along with good pillar bedding has a lot to do with accuracy also. On my BAT they don't have a recoil lug. Just a little notch milled into the bottom. Shot them in a 300 Weatherby and 300 WSM and recoil doesn't seem to bother it. I also think the hole cut into the action for a repeater hurts accuracy especially when hanging a long heavy barrel on it. On triggers a jewel BR trigger costs the same for a Bat or rem. My Bats have a push pin ejector and lay the brass on a neat pile on a towel. The kind of mechanical ejectors I have seen like on a mauser throw them wildly by the way you pull the bolt back. Usually off the bench and dinging the necks. I have seen a lot of 1000 yard guns with Rem. actions and 30 inch barrels hanging from them. They do win so I don't think the ejector or round hurts any. If you shoot the bullets 10 in the rifling a ejector won't push bullet.

Of course if you jam the bolt back the round ejects a long way away from you, but if you pull it back and lightly hit the fixed blade ejector it just pops out and falls. All the remingtons I have ever shot have thrown the brass, just my personal experience. I do agree that removing the metal on the bottom does drastically decrease action strength which is a downfall of the cz action. I am looking at the savage and I still don't like the idea of the non integral recoil lug. The only aftermarket action that I have found that I really like is the stolle panda or the RPA Engineering quadlock. I will have to do more research and find out if there is any way to get what I want in a nice target package.

 

[GSPV]

Well, young man, you asked for advice. We've given it. You'll soon learn to your dismay what my grandfather told me many decades ago.

"A hard head leads to a tender fanny"

 

[Erik Cortina]

I hope all the Manufacturers that make Remington clone actions are reading this, apparently they need to scrap their actions and clone a CZ action.

How long are you guys going to argue with this guy about a CZ action. This guy has disagreed with johara, TonyR, and BoydAllen among other top shooters in the World. Apparently he knows it all, so let him build on his CZ action with metric threads that ejects brass into a pile! The problem is that all of you giving him advise are worried about small groups, he is worried about a small brass pile! ;D

He needs to sell his CZ and get a Remington 700, put a jewel trigger on it and be done, but I guess we're all wrong.

 

[Surgikill]

I hope all the Manufacturers that make Remington clone actions are reading this, apparently they need to scrap their actions and clone a CZ action.

How long are you guys going to argue with this guy about a CZ action. This guy has disagreed with johara, TonyR, and BoydAllen among other top shooters in the World. Apparently he knows it all, so let him build on his CZ action with metric threads that ejects brass into a pile! The problem is that all of you giving him advise are worried about small groups, he is worried about a small brass pile! ;D

He needs to sell his CZ and get a Remington 700, put a jewel trigger on it and be done, but I guess we're all wrong.

No need to be rude. I asked about the strength of the CZ action and now it has devolved into a who is bigger than who contest. I'm sorry I don't like the same actions you all do. If you also read carefully, you would see that I didn't disagree with them, they are correct in certain instances, but there are two sides to every coin.

 

[BoydAllen]

Build it. Shoot it. Come back with the results.