Accuracy VS velocities

[AWLEAPHART]

Back in the winter months my velocities were giving me a low SD. Now that its warmed up here in the South- I’m getting, First shot 2947 FPS Last is 3003 FPS out of 10 shots.

I have shot the 10 shot 3 different times and getting close to the same thing. 50 to 60 fps spread. The accuracy is crazy at 100 yards. 0.15 to 0.20 ten shot group. I’m need to take out to 600 yards to see what will happen but just wanting some of the experts’ opinion on this. Maybe need to try a different chronograph?

6BRX,105 Bergers H4895,CCI450,Lapua

Thanks
Anthony L

 

[savagedasher]

Back in the winter months my velocities were giving me a low SD. Now that its warmed up here in the South- I’m getting, First shot 2947 FPS Last is 3003 FPS out of 10 shots.

I have shot the 10 shot 3 different times and getting close to the same thing. 50 to 60 fps spread. The accuracy is crazy at 100 yards. 0.15 to 0.20 ten shot group. I’m need to take out to 600 yards to see what will happen but just wanting some of the experts’ opinion on this. Maybe need to try a different chronograph?

6BRX,105 Bergers H4895,CCI450,Lapua

Thanks
Anthony L

I don't think 4895 is temperature insitve . Larry

 

[Grimstod]

All powders are temperature sensitive. Some are just more then others.

If you have a lot of SD then it may not do so hot at longer range. Out at 600 the velocity spread starts to introduce vertical to a greater extent then at shorter ranges.

 

[dragman]

if it shoots that good take it long and put it on paper! I have had guns that shot in the 1's and 2's with ES of under 10 that couldn't print at 1000, and I have had guns that shot in the 2's and 3's with ES at 20-30fps that printed less than 3" of vertical at 1000.
if a load shoots just that good at 100 you owe it to yourself and that barrel to test it and see.

 

[VaRandy]

Stop confusing yourself with 10 shot groups. Would you learn more from a 25 shot group? Get a really good rest and bench and hold it to 3 shot groups to learn all you need. AT your rate you could wear a barrel out chasing what? Forget long range until you have a 100 yd group you are happy with. A good 100 group should be good at much longer distances if off a good rest unless you do the equivalent of pushing a flat base bullet too far. Best thing to do is write down your GOAL. Right group, low SD, high speed, etc. They likely have different solutions.

 

[dragman]

Stop confusing yourself with 10 shot groups. Would you learn more from a 25 shot group? Get a really good rest and bench and hold it to 3 shot groups to learn all you need. AT your rate you could wear a barrel out chasing what? Forget long range until you have a 100 yd group you are happy with. A good 100 group should be good at much longer distances if off a good rest unless you do the equivalent of pushing a flat base bullet too far. Best thing to do is write down your GOAL. Right group, low SD, high speed, etc. They likely have different solutions.

I don't have a problem with 3 shot groups I prefer 5 if your tuning a match gun. But never just assume a 100 yard group gun will compete out long. I have had 100 yard guns that could shoot in the 1's that COULDN'T compete out long. They might have had the group the shape the right ES everything but sometimes they don't shoot out long (If we are talking winning capable)

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Back in the winter months my velocities were giving me a low SD. Now that its warmed up here in the South- I’m getting, First shot 2947 FPS Last is 3003 FPS out of 10 shots.

I have shot the 10 shot 3 different times and getting close to the same thing. 50 to 60 fps spread. The accuracy is crazy at 100 yards. 0.15 to 0.20 ten shot group. I’m need to take out to 600 yards to see what will happen but just wanting some of the experts’ opinion on this. Maybe need to try a different chronograph?

6BRX,105 Bergers H4895,CCI450,Lapua

Thanks
Anthony L

In looking at the data on the Hodgdon website it appears that the H4895 powder is much more temperature sensitive than either H4350 or H4831. What distance are you looking at shooting this rifle? If it at 100 yards then you are already set. If you plan to shoot out to 1,000 yards my gut tells me the ES of over 50 fps will show in vertical stringing but only one way to find out.

 

[VaRandy]

I don't have a problem with 3 shot groups I prefer 5 if your tuning a match gun. But never just assume a 100 yard group gun will compete out long. I have had 100 yard guns that could shoot in the 1's that COULDN'T compete out long. They might have had the group the shape the right ES everything but sometimes they don't shoot out long (If we are talking winning capable)

i suspect if you had a JOE NAILER at 100 that wouldn't shoot long it was either shooter and/or conditions. The reverse is not true where a weapon that kills the long shots shoots poorly at 100

I understand all about 5 shots for matches. Been there done it at 1000. It is a measure of how well the shooter is. When you are making decisions about working up an all new load, you want to know what the weapon will do, not the shooter. Your position on a firm bench, hopefully with a front benchrest and such is as close as you can do to putting it in a vise. If you know what the GUN shoots, and variance beyond that is either you and.or conditions. 100 yards tells you how good the GUN will shoot if the supports (and bench) are good enough.

 

[BartsBullets]

Back in the winter months my velocities were giving me a low SD. Now that its warmed up here in the South- I’m getting, First shot 2947 FPS Last is 3003 FPS out of 10 shots.

I have shot the 10 shot 3 different times and getting close to the same thing. 50 to 60 fps spread. The accuracy is crazy at 100 yards. 0.15 to 0.20 ten shot group. I’m need to take out to 600 yards to see what will happen but just wanting some of the experts’ opinion on this. Maybe need to try a different chronograph?

6BRX,105 Bergers H4895,CCI450,Lapua

Thanks
Anthony L

Anthony,

The first shot out of a clean bore will ALWAYS run 50 to 60 fps difference. Shoot a couple of shots to let the barrel settle down and then check your results.
Personally I could care less about low SD and ES. Those aren't printed on the match reports, only the size of your groups.

Bart

 

[AWLEAPHART]

Thanks for all the replies.
I have some info I keep from shooting the other day. The first day I get free from work Im going to go stretcher her legs out with this load and see what she will do.
Round 1
2935
2951
2949
2962
2965
Round 2
2972
2981
2990
2976
2981
2992
Round 3
2947
2969
2981
2988
2977
2994
2991
3003
2997
3003

 

[pat fulghum]

Anthony,

The first shot out of a clean bore will ALWAYS run 50 to 60 fps difference. Shoot a couple of shots to let the barrel settle down and then check your results.
Personally I could care less about low SD and ES. Those aren't printed on the match reports, only the size of your groups.

Bart

+1

If I clean my gun I always need 5 shots to get it back to normal.

And for every trip to the range I throw away the first two shots .

I am a F class shooter, so I rarely clean my gun

 

[BartsBullets]

+1

If I clean my gun I always need 5 shots to get it back to normal.

And for every trip to the range I throw away the first two shots .

I am a F class shooter, so I rarely clean my gun

Even with a bore that's been shot. If you let it set for a few minutes the first shot will come out 10 to 20 slower. Labradars are great!

Bart

 

[pat fulghum]

And it is important to understand, document and REMEMBER how your gun behaves.

Let's say you are in a match and you have 6 rounds on paper for score but now you have to wait 5 min for the wind storm (or daredevil in Texas) to pass. You might have to tweak you POA high/low/left/right for that next shot.

I think these things are important...

This game wouldn't be any fun if it was simply hold center/ squeeze / pray / repeat ...

 

[dragman]

i suspect if you had a JOE NAILER at 100 that wouldn't shoot long it was either shooter and/or conditions. The reverse is not true where a weapon that kills the long shots shoots poorly at 100

I understand all about 5 shots for matches. Been there done it at 1000. It is a measure of how well the shooter is. When you are making decisions about working up an all new load, you want to know what the weapon will do, not the shooter. Your position on a firm bench, hopefully with a front benchrest and such is as close as you can do to putting it in a vise. If you know what the GUN shoots, and variance beyond that is either you and.or conditions. 100 yards tells you how good the GUN will shoot if the supports (and bench) are good enough.

Talk to most accomplished 1000 yard + shooters and you will find that that 100 yard awesome gun just doesn't always translate and it's not the shooter at least not always.
Not many people shoot enough "LONG" in testing mode to really see what's happening they just use conditions as the excuse. Well when you take 2 guns side by side and rotate them for group and 1 consistently wins you know it's real. Then sometimes you realise the 3/8ths or 1/2moa gun just out shot the gun that shoots in the 1's.

 

[ShootDots]

H4895 is an "Extreme" powder like all the rest of the extreme powders. What I see is that you are, in my opinion, at the very top of your node. I doubt there is a very wide window. Running at velocities with a 105 that are the equal of Varget / RL-15 with H4895 is pushing that powder pretty hard. Remember H4895 is more towards the faster end of the medium burn powders. It is barely slower than IMR 8208XBR. It is an excellent powder, however, you would have to run somewhat more pressures to get to the upper 2900's with a 105 class bullet, ergo I believe this is where you are experiencing your phenomenon..

 

[BartsBullets]

Talk to most accomplished 1000 yard + shooters and you will find that that 100 yard awesome gun just doesn't always translate and it's not the shooter at least not always.
Not many people shoot enough "LONG" in testing mode to really see what's happening they just use conditions as the excuse. Well when you take 2 guns side by side and rotate them for group and 1 consistently wins you know it's real. Then sometimes you realise the 3/8ths or 1/2moa gun just out shot the gun that shoots in the 1's.

Dragman,

That's very true but the the other side of the coin that you never hear is...If it won't shoot at 100 it's not going to shoot at 1000. If you get it dailed in at 100 yards and it shoots. Then it only takes a little tweaking to get it to shoot at 1000. I agree that you need to confirm your tune at the distance you intend to shoot. But if it shoots at 100, it's not too far off.

Bart

 

[dragman]

Dragman,

That's very true but the the other side of the coin that you never hear is...If it won't shoot at 100 it's not going to shoot at 1000. If you get it dailed in at 100 yards and it shoots. Then it only takes a little tweaking to get it to shoot at 1000. I agree that you need to confirm your tune at the distance you intend to shoot. But if it shoots at 100, it's not too far off.

Bart

With some bigger guns it does work the other way. I had 2 338s that wouldn't shoot less than 3/4" at 100 but would print sub 5" groups at 1200. All guns are different, agree if it's great at 100 it's usually close but not always winning capable

 

[dkhunt14]

Dragman,

That's very true but the the other side of the coin that you never hear is...If it won't shoot at 100 it's not going to shoot at 1000. If you get it dailed in at 100 yards and it shoots. Then it only takes a little tweaking to get it to shoot at 1000. I agree that you need to confirm your tune at the distance you intend to shoot. But if it shoots at 100, it's not too far off.

Bart

I tend to agree with Dragman. Most of my great shooting barrels have never shot good at 100. 1/2 to 3/4 at best. The ones that shot small and low ES, most the time shot big at 1000. Then there is the phenomenon of the load that shoots through the conditions way better then another. I never find that load testing at 100. Ask Tom Mousel, or Alex Wheeler and I believe they pretty much agree with what I said. Matt

 

[ShootDots]

I tend to agree with Dragman. Most of my great shooting barrels have never shot good at 100. 1/2 to 3/4 at best. The ones that shot small and low ES, most the time shot big at 1000. Then there is the phenomenon of the load that shoots through the conditions way better then another. I never find that load testing at 100. Ask Tom Mousel, or Alex Wheeler and I believe they pretty much agree with what I said. Matt

I have a 30-06A.I. that I shot a group in the low 0's. at 100 yards. It went to the .400s at 200 and 1.75+ at 300! I have to agree that load development at 100 is, at best, a hit miss proposition. If it shoots really well at 100 it MAY shoot good further out. However, there is an equal chance that the load that shot well at 100 may fall apart at 600 or 1000. I have seen this event on more than a few occasions. I have a flip phone and still have the pic of that group. I could send it to someone who could post it here as proof that a great 100 yard load does not necessarily translate into a great load at any range!

 

[BartsBullets]

I tend to agree with Dragman. Most of my great shooting barrels have never shot good at 100. 1/2 to 3/4 at best. The ones that shot small and low ES, most the time shot big at 1000. Then there is the phenomenon of the load that shoots through the conditions way better then another. I never find that load testing at 100. Ask Tom Mousel, or Alex Wheeler and I believe they pretty much agree with what I said. Matt

Matt,

Quite honestly I'd say that most 1000 and 600 yard shooters can't really ring out a barrel at 100/200 yards. Y'all don't read wind flags for the most part and tune by ladder test at distance. Hey that works! I have no problem with it. I agree with your thoughts on ES. ES is only a validation of reloading techniques. Tuning primarily at 100yds has worked pretty well for Jim Ohare. It can and will get you close. Not there but close.

If your gun is shooting guns 1/2 inch to 3/4 at 100yards. They don't heal themselves and shoot better at 1000. Unless your gun was really shooting better then that and you couldn't accurately read the conditions. Otherwise You much have 1/2 or 3/4 MOA Gun at best.

Contrary to a good deal of thinking on this board a 1000 yards isn't end all to Precision shooting or the only yardage Precision reloading and shooting that comes into play.

I'd like to see a Precision Shooting triathlon. Let's take the TOP COMPETITOTORS and shoot a 1000 yard match, 600 and then a short range match. Totals will be tallied by adding up
Overall placement. It will be an MMA Match or aka Mixed Marksman Artist match. I'll be the first to sign up! You in Mighty Mouse you 1000 yard savant?


Bart