Acceptable weight deviations in brass.

[savagedasher]

Does sorting cases by weight or volume show on the target at 500 yds? Can anyone post some 3-5 shot groups using a ladder test with the only variable being the case?
Ben

I can't post a target but I have one with
5 shot 1.050 and another 1.650 shot back to back one on the top was the largest
The two targets were shot with internal volume .
The week after had 4 targets 5 shot each All in the red on a dirty bird 6" target . ES under 5 ' on 20 shots . Shot with a Savage
No telling how small it would of been with a real gun and a scope that was tested .
Larry

 

[Richard Coody]

I have no doubt from all the things.i have tried sorting.by volume makes.a difference.

Haven't made that step yet but i can see it coming. You will never know till you try it.

How do you fill them all equally? Must have a spent primer in the case. This could get interesting.

 

[savagedasher]

I will add the water line was under 3/4" on 30 shots . Larry

 

[BenPerfected]

Seems like sorting brass by weight or volume may give me the same results as sorting primers. For now, my reloading focus will continue to be an accurate powder charge along with consistent neck thickness & bullet tension.
Ben

 

[savagedasher]

Seems like sorting brass by weight or volume may give me the same results as sorting primers. For now, my reloading focus will continue to be an accurate powder charge along with consistent neck thickness & bullet tension.
Ben

I don't think so volume works for me weight of the brass didn't . I don't have any problem wit neck tension I use less then half of the neck to hold the bullets . Half of the necks is .269.5 and the hold on the bullet is 265 . Case volume is no more then 2 tenth .
Larry

 

[Zilla]

What is this weight sorting you speak of?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Some (and I include myself in this category) must try to make up in terms of ammo consistency at the reloading bench what they may lack in skill at the firing line . The only good news is that it may be a bit more palatable for those who were already naturally inclined (OCD) to measure, weigh, trim, sort, tweek, and/or finagle things to about 6 or 7 decimal places, even when they don't matter LOL.

 

[Zilla]

If you think it matters, it matters.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Weighing them, or sorting by water capacity may not mean diddly.

Many years ago I shot the Firewalker HBR match in Colorado. Shooters were doing some or all of the same things mentioned here. Eric Ambler picked up six pieces of range 308 brass the afternoon before the match, FL sized it, trimmed to length, turned the case necks to fit his tight neck chamber, and won the match. IIRC, he had one each of Federal, Win, Rem, DWM, and an LC Match.

Shooters were mostly using FL 308 Win with what was then termed a "tight neck turkey" with .001" clearance on a loaded round. 39-43gr of H4895 and Sierra 150gr MK's.

That winter I learned that Sierra used three point up dies for their Match King line up in .30 caliber, and fed them all into a tub. Vern Johnson Sr out of Portland showed me a neat trick. He and his son, and I bought 10,000 bulk bullets, and sat down with the old Sinclair hex head tool that fit dial calipers with slots. The three point up heads had .014" difference in base to ogive lengths.
We ended up with bullets that we gauged at .000", .009", and .014" base to ogive length. We just sorted the shortest ones and set them at .000", then referenced the other two from that zero.

The big thing it taught me, was setting my jump to .010" with unsorted bullets would result in bullets that were .010" jump, .003" jump, and the long ones jammed .004" into the rifling. Testing the next week, Mr Oehler showed 16fps more from the .000" to the .009, and another14fps to the .014" ones.

If you have good brass, LAPUA as a standard; the HBR matches at 100/200/300yds might not show much improvement in scores from prepping them VS out of the box.

Zilla probably said it best...

 

[T-shooter]

Volume makes a difference. I was loading .223 in 2.260" and 2.300" lengths. No other difference and all loaded and shot at the same time. Using a 55 grain Lehigh bullet, Federal cases and primers, and CFE223 powder. 28.4g averaged 3,045 fps over 5 shots. Setting the depth out to 2.300" (which only changed the case volume, this 5.56 NATO chamber rifle has over .100" jump) they slowed to an average of 3,014 fps. It took 4/10 grain of powder, 28.8g, to get the speed back up to an average of 3,050 fps.

 

[langenc]

Jesus has spoken, weight means nothing! By the way, what is a gran? It's not a measurement I'm familiar with.

Either grain or gram, misspelled. Quite a difference. One good reason why Gram used to be abbreviated Gm, and grain, gr.

 

[Sub300]

I never enjoyed sorting cases by volume of water, so I stopped. Now I just weight sort after prep is complete, it is fired, resized and trimmed. Depends on the brass, but usually sort by 1/2 gr. and pull the outliers. I end up with a Bell Curve on the bench. I pick the middle, usually 75-90% of remaining cases.

My next step is a 2nd firing with proven load and seating depth at 200 yds in good conditions. Any case that throws a round out of moa, barring shooter error, gets pulled.

Last test is at 4-600 yds, same criteria. By then, I have only have 50-60% of original lot remaining. Over time, there will be a few more go in the fouler box, but I end up with a reliable lot of long range brass.

Like ireload2 said, buy a butt load of brass. Gets more expensive with bullets, powder and barrel life.

Hi everyone, I’m new to weighing brass, and just have a question, I understand that weighing brass or weighing brass by water volume becomes critical at long range from the bench. I know that the closer you can keep the pressure from round to round the tighter the groups are. Here’s my question, would the same process work for subsonic accuracy at say 100yds? Due to the slow velocities I’ve found that vertical stringing is prevalent at this range, would this hep? Thanks

 

[triggerdog]

I think I will revert back to a bb gun , much simpler, unless weighing each bb is important....

 

[LC Tikka]

It's not the weight or volume of a case that is really important, it is the pressure created that pushes the bullet. If it is consistency you want install a pressure relief device just ahead of the chamber, then sort out the other few remaining variables the best you can.
LC

 

[XTR]

I used to have a link to the post but one of the site upgrades broke it; however, there was a post on this site yrs ago where someone had done a test comparing weight to volume of 223 brass. He weighed a lot of cases. In the end he found there was a 70% correlation between weight and internal volume when measured filled with water I think. (Could have been alcohol).

My 308s will shoot just at or below .5 moa vertical out to 1000 yds And about .3 at 600yds. That's good enough for F class. I don’t weigh brass. Maybe I should, but these days I find I just don’t have the time for one more step in the process.

 

[Oso]

Hi everyone, I’m new to weighing brass, and just have a question, I understand that weighing brass or weighing brass by water volume becomes critical at long range from the bench. I know that the closer you can keep the pressure from round to round the tighter the groups are. Here’s my question, would the same process work for subsonic accuracy at say 100yds? Due to the slow velocities I’ve found that vertical stringing is prevalent at this range, would this hep? Thanks

I am no expert and just at edge of improving my reloading OCD to weighing/measuring everything, but I think your challenge with Subsonics is a different beast....assuming we are talking about a conventional rifle cartridge with sufficient case capacity to shoot supersonic. Most cartridges perform best as the powder charge approach 95%-100% of case fill resulting in more consistent ignition and efficient powder burn. The challenge with Subsonics is reduced powder charges, which translates into low case fill. The ignition from the primer may differ from round to round in a magazine all because of how the powder is distributed inside the case. If the powder is level along the entire case versus if it is mostly piled up by the rear of case close to primer, etc. Each of these can result in differing degree of ignition and velocity. There is the chance of flashover or multiple ignitions... these are unique to excess space (empty) within the cartridge that you don't encounter in the same cartridge when it is loaded with a full charge for shooting supersonic loads. This variation increases with the increase in case volume or put another way variation increases as case fill decreases.

A great example is subsonics in 300BO vs .308Win. The 300BO case is optimized for being able to shoot both supersonics and subsonics. Same bullet used for subsonic between the two cartridges and even the same powder charge theoretically needed to achieve the same 1080fps. The difference is case capacity / case fill. Although the powder charge for subsonics in the 300BO is only approximately 50% of supersonic powder charge, the longer bullet (200gr+) is seated deeper into the case effectively reducing case capacity... the case fill is still approaching 100% filled. However, the same powder charge in .308Win only represents 20%-25% of the case capacity and seating the bullet deep doesn't make much of a difference. The case is mostly empty space, which results in all kinds of erratic/unpredictable ignitions from round to round. One potential solution is to try to use a powder designed to have a large case volume, such as Trail Boss. Others have played with adding filler into the case to eliminate some of the excess space. The goal is to get a consistent ignition and burn. Best to match the case volume with the powder volume.

You don't find subsonic 22Magnum ammo ... you find subsonic 22LR or 22shorts

 

[tsyarnall]

“...............How do you fill them all equally? Must have a spent primer in the case. This could get interesting.”

21ST Century Shooting sells plugs that fit small and large primer wholes. They work well for measuring the volume of cases.

Scott Y

 

[Sub300]

I am no expert and just at edge of improving my reloading OCD to weighing/measuring everything, but I think your challenge with Subsonics is a different beast....assuming we are talking about a conventional rifle cartridge with sufficient case capacity to shoot supersonic. Most cartridges perform best as the powder charge approach 95%-100% of case fill resulting in more consistent ignition and efficient powder burn. The challenge with Subsonics is reduced powder charges, which translates into low case fill. The ignition from the primer may differ from round to round in a magazine all because of how the powder is distributed inside the case. If the powder is level along the entire case versus if it is mostly piled up by the rear of case close to primer, etc. Each of these can result in differing degree of ignition and velocity. There is the chance of flashover or multiple ignitions... these are unique to excess space (empty) within the cartridge that you don't encounter in the same cartridge when it is loaded with a full charge for shooting supersonic loads. This variation increases with the increase in case volume or put another way variation increases as case fill decreases.

A great example is subsonics in 300BO vs .308Win. The 300BO case is optimized for being able to shoot both supersonics and subsonics. Same bullet used for subsonic between the two cartridges and even the same powder charge theoretically needed to achieve the same 1080fps. The difference is case capacity / case fill. Although the powder charge for subsonics in the 300BO is only approximately 50% of supersonic powder charge, the longer bullet (200gr+) is seated deeper into the case effectively reducing case capacity... the case fill is still approaching 100% filled. However, the same powder charge in .308Win only represents 20%-25% of the case capacity and seating the bullet deep doesn't make much of a difference. The case is mostly empty space, which results in all kinds of erratic/unpredictable ignitions from round to round. One potential solution is to try to use a powder designed to have a large case volume, such as Trail Boss. Others have played with adding filler into the case to eliminate some of the excess space. The goal is to get a consistent ignition and burn. Best to match the case volume with the powder volume.

You don't find subsonic 22Magnum ammo ... you find subsonic 22LR or 22shorts

I really appreciate you responding to my post, thanks. I do only load 300BO subsonic with 190 to 220gr. This is the main reason I joined this forum, I’ve already done the groundwork on my loads only using powders with optimal case fill according to what weight bullet I am shooting. I always try to work my loads up with the powder touching the bullet. I’ve had problems with some powders in the past being position sensitive or flash overs causing huge ES and SD. One of the only things left to try to improve accuracy is to weight sort, that’s why I thought this might help improve accuracy even further. Any response or opinions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone

 

[Oso]

I really appreciate you responding to my post, thanks. I do only load 300BO subsonic with 190 to 220gr. This is the main reason I joined this forum, I’ve already done the groundwork on my loads only using powders with optimal case fill according to what weight bullet I am shooting. I always try to work my loads up with the powder touching the bullet. I’ve had problems with some powders in the past being position sensitive or flash overs causing huge ES and SD. One of the only things left to try to improve accuracy is to weight sort, that’s why I thought this might help improve accuracy even further. Any response or opinions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone

Sorry - Your screen name should have been a clue "Sub300" that I totally ignored.... I am having a good chuckle now! Sending you a pm... let's chat offline

 

[JMayo]

I read it on the internet. Said by a bunch of ppl I don't know nor have I seen their name on the top of score sheets ...SO IT MUST BE TRUE !

I do my things ... Some were suggested by top shooters, some weren't ... I try to learn from them.

I separated 200 by weight, divided in half and I've tried to keep them that way. My groups & scores have gotten better ..... (3yrs in)
Outta 100 things I do ...sure as chit the one I decided to stop doing,
that'll be the thing that was producing the bettered results !

Do what makes you feel that you're hemming the game up !