Acceptable group from a BAR?

[JASmith]

What is your trigger like? In other words, is it 7# with a bit if creep?

Can it be touched up?

My BLR has that kind of trigger but the design keeps one from making it better. Nonetheless, with significant effort and load development, I was able to get a few 1.25 to 1.5” groups.

Regarding semi-auto accuracy, rifles built around the AR10 and AR15 platforms are capable of stunning accuracy. Many shooters report rutin sub 0.5 MOA accuracy and a few even better.

 

[284winner]

It is your rifle and you can define accuracy any way you like, BUT if I had a semiauto in a hunting caliber that would knot up the first 3 I'd be ecstatic. IMHO 3 shots is plenty for any hunting rifle, especially a semiauto. Set forth with confidence.

I wish I could say the first 3 were always those bullets in the clover leaf. That would be a different story. It's just never the case. Like I said, my groups are 2" at best In any 3-5 shot configuration. Some 3 shots have been great while others have been the 2-3". Just nothing compared to a bolt gun.

 

[Chad280]

What is your trigger like? In other words, is it 7# with a bit if creep?

Can it be touched up?

My BLR has that kind of trigger but the design keeps one from making it better. Nonetheless, with significant effort and load development, I was able to get a few 1.25 to 1.5” groups.

Regarding semi-auto accuracy, rifles built around the AR10 and AR15 platforms are capable of stunning accuracy. Many shooters report rutin sub 0.5 MOA accuracy and a few even better.

Trigger is not great at all. I’m not sure if anything can even be done to improve it

 

[JEFFPPC]

Trigger is not great at all. I’m not sure if anything can even be done to improve it

Chad, perhaps an alternative would be a Rem 760 pump. I have had several that rival the accuracy of a good factory bolt gun. O6 or 35Whelen will do the trick just fine. Tiggers can be helped on them by someone knowledgeable.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

If it your timber rifle and if all stay on a paper plate at 200 yards, you are gtg. But it would still be a performance issue I would investigate, shoot a 5 shot hand chambered group.

 

[wkdickinson]

My guess is that much of what you are experiencing is the result of your heavy, creepy trigger, which there is no fix for. Add to that, the known difficulties of making a BAR shoot consistently because of shortcomings of the rifle itself (i.e., Browning's need to add the BOSS system). IMHO, you are probably "chasing your tail" expecting significant improvement from load development.

 

[2506]

I am speaking from what I have learned from two friends about the BAR and hand loading for them. One is a gunsmith and the other was a licensed specialty hand loader for 40+ years.

Number one problem the gunsmith encountered with inaccurate rifles period was messed up crowns. In eastern NC where he had his business much of the deer hunting involved hunting with dogs. Shotguns with buckshot were used mostly in the woods and swamps but there were lots of times were fields were involved and rifles were used and the BAR was very popular because mostly shots were at running deer.
Most often these hunters would drive up in their truck to a certain spot on a dirt road around the field and either shoot off the hood of the truck or off the top of the cab as a rest. Here is what messed up their crown of the rifle. Most would carry their rifles with the muzzle resting on the carpet of the floor while driving. With the sand and dirt in that carpet it acted like sand paper on the crown. A quick fix to restore a crown is this. Get a BRASS round head bolt larger than the size of the bore of the rifle. Chuck the threaded end of the bolt in a variable speed hand drill. Get some valve grinding compound and apply a dab to the rounded bolt head. With the rifle held in a vice horizontally run the drill at a slow speed and hold the round bolt head against the muzzle of the rifle with slight pressure for about 30 seconds. Clean the muzzle and with a magnifying glass check the crown to see if it has been cut sharp all the way around. If not repeat the process until the crown is restored sharp. Clean rifle bore good to remove any compound. This had turned rifles that shot patterns into nice group shooters.

You gave not much information on your load or set up for shooting or what scope you are using. What bullet are you shooting? If you are not shooting off a level solid bench with a good front and rear support you can't shoot good groups. Shooting off of lead sleds will also cause bad grouping because it does not allow the rifle to recoil like it does from off the shoulder. If you are using a scope with low magnification or with heavy reticle or with parallax problems this will cause you to not be able to shoot consistently good groups no matter the accuracy of the rifle.

Now from the hand loading friend's experience with the BAR and 7 mag. (I called him to ask about your problem.)
He said to use H4350 for 150 to 160 gr bullets. It is temp stable and has been what he has found shoots best. For the most part he was loading for deer hunters and they wanted either the Hornady 154 gr Interlock or SST because they seamed to kill deer better than most any other bullet. You can not get the velocity with H4350 as you can with slower burning powders but for the BAR this is what shoot best. He said and I agree the game will not know the difference between a bullet going 100 fps or so faster than a slower one if you put the bullet where it needs to go. A fast miss is still a miss. Here is what he learned to do. Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and use it. With the recoil of the 7 mag. as well as the semi auto loading of the round bullets can and do in many instances move. This will cause those fliers. Use a medium crimp and it does not have to have a cannelure on the bullet. This will hold the bullet form moving and also help apply the same neck tension to all rounds.
He said that the BAR as a whole is one of the most accurate semi auto hunting rifles he has worked with.
Good luck in your endeavor.

 

[AckleymanII]

The BAR's that I have owned in 243,270,30/06, and 7 Mag shot well, but I de coppered the barrel after 20 rounds max, never shot the barrel hot, shot three shot groups.

Good bronze bristle brushes, Sweets 7.62 copper solvent or similar keeps the BAR's up and running. They are high maintenance guns on cleaning if you want great accuracy as they copper foul.

In my 7 Mags, I shot 140g Noslers ballistic tips on deer or partitions or 160g sierra btsp.

140g
Rem brass
Rem 9 1/2
65-65.5g of IMR 4350
Seat the bullet out to touch the lands if you can

I had one 7 Mag with no boss and 3 with the boss. The boss rifles can be tuned to shoot like a custom gun but you have to de copper the barrel between 15-20 rounds.

Some gunsmiths can re spring the trigger.

Chad, buy a bore scope, and clean the barrel down to bare metal. You are going to need JB or Montana Extreme copper cream.

Try the 140g load above, and a 139g Hornady btsp also shot very well. Check some gunsmiths within driving distance for a Re spring on your trigger group.

When you are shooting the BAR, hold down the forearm on the bags(don't let a finger touch the barrel), if you don't you will be chasing your tail forever.

The BAR's with the boss are very remarkable shooters.

I resized my brass with a standard RCBS full length sizer.

I would bet that your barrel is FULL of copper.

 

[searcher]

IMHO, you are probably "chasing your tail" expecting significant improvement from load development.

Time spent doing load development is a chore for some and a journey for others. In my experience loading for M1A's, BAR's, .30 Cal. M1's and Mini 14's and even some A/R's, starting out with a rifle that seems to put everything in a "large" group is pretty normal. If one isn't willing to try what it might take to find a good load - and that might mean going thru 8 or more powders and several bullets - they often stay large. If the crown is in good shape and no serious damage to the bore like heavy corrosion, getting 1 MOA out of a BAR should be easy if one is willing to spend for the components and time at the range to find the right combo and assuming one knows how to properly load. People often spend WAY too much time trying to tune a certain bullet or powder when the gun just doesn't like it. The BAR is a fantastic hunting arm and when dialed in with what it likes (maybe not what you have on hand), it is a grand rig. Shooting factory ammo out of mine is akin to a shotgun pattern. Dialed in - will easily go under 1/2 MOA. I'd say your time is wasted doing load development is wasted only if you don't enjoy shooting or don't want to spend the time, money and effort to see what your rig is capable of. Tips for the BAR include being SURE you have enough neck tension to ensure that bullet doesn't move when being cycled into the chamber and don't bump the shoulder back more than .003" to .005" AFTER you are certain they are fully blown forward as far as they are going to go. If you are getting 1 1/2" or 2" groups - switch to another powder without delay. You can always go back if the next powders are worse - but when you find a powder your BAR likes - your worst group will tend to be better than your best group previously. In bolt guns - you can usually tune quite a bit aside from the powder. The semi-autos seem to like powder selection above most else. If you shoot a couple of groups with several powders and still no good with a certain bullet - go to another bullet and shoot all powders again. Also - it helps a LOT

 

[searcher]

It also helps a lot to put a very powerful scope on your rifle when doling your testing.

 

[Chad280]

If it your timber rifle and if all stay on a paper plate at 200 yards, you are gtg. But it would still be a performance issue I would investigate, shoot a 5 shot hand chambered group.

I’m going to do that next time I go out. I believe it’s one side or the other from the mag. Pushing the bullets in and possibly tweaking the bullet by the violent bolt action.

 

[Chad280]

The BAR's that I have owned in 243,270,30/06, and 7 Mag shot well, but I de coppered the barrel after 20 rounds max, never shot the barrel hot, shot three shot groups.

Good bronze bristle brushes, Sweets 7.62 copper solvent or similar keeps the BAR's up and running. They are high maintenance guns on cleaning if you want great accuracy as they copper foul.

In my 7 Mags, I shot 140g Noslers ballistic tips on deer or partitions or 160g sierra btsp.

140g
Rem brass
Rem 9 1/2
65-65.5g of IMR 4350
Seat the bullet out to touch the lands if you can

I had one 7 Mag with no boss and 3 with the boss. The boss rifles can be tuned to shoot like a custom gun but you have to de copper the barrel between 15-20 rounds.

Some gunsmiths can re spring the trigger.

Chad, buy a bore scope, and clean the barrel down to bare metal. You are going to need JB or Montana Extreme copper cream.

Try the 140g load above, and a 139g Hornady btsp also shot very well. Check some gunsmiths within driving distance for a Re spring on your trigger group.

When you are shooting the BAR, hold down the forearm on the bags(don't let a finger touch the barrel), if you don't you will be chasing your tail forever.

The BAR's with the boss are very remarkable shooters.

I resized my brass with a standard RCBS full length sizer.

I would bet that your barrel is FULL of copper.

Time spent doing load development is a chore for some and a journey for others. In my experience loading for M1A's, BAR's, .30 Cal. M1's and Mini 14's and even some A/R's, starting out with a rifle that seems to put everything in a "large" group is pretty normal. If one isn't willing to try what it might take to find a good load - and that might mean going thru 8 or more powders and several bullets - they often stay large. If the crown is in good shape and no serious damage to the bore like heavy corrosion, getting 1 MOA out of a BAR should be easy if one is willing to spend for the components and time at the range to find the right combo and assuming one knows how to properly load. People often spend WAY too much time trying to tune a certain bullet or powder when the gun just doesn't like it. The BAR is a fantastic hunting arm and when dialed in with what it likes (maybe not what you have on hand), it is a grand rig. Shooting factory ammo out of mine is akin to a shotgun pattern. Dialed in - will easily go under 1/2 MOA. I'd say your time is wasted doing load development is wasted only if you don't enjoy shooting or don't want to spend the time, money and effort to see what your rig is capable of. Tips for the BAR include being SURE you have enough neck tension to ensure that bullet doesn't move when being cycled into the chamber and don't bump the shoulder back more than .003" to .005" AFTER you are certain they are fully blown forward as far as they are going to go. If you are getting 1 1/2" or 2" groups - switch to another powder without delay. You can always go back if the next powders are worse - but when you find a powder your BAR likes - your worst group will tend to be better than your best group previously. In bolt guns - you can usually tune quite a bit aside from the powder. The semi-autos seem to like powder selection above most else. If you shoot a couple of groups with several powders and still no good with a certain bullet - go to another bullet and shoot all powders again. Also - it helps a LOT

problem is, is there is no powder to buy. I’m using what powder I have that wil work in it. If I could get different powders I would.

 

[Chad280]

It also helps a lot to put a very powerful scope on your rifle when doling your testing.

I have a 6.5x20 on it just for load work up.

 

[searcher]

I haven't looked around at the powder supply and was unaware that things are getting tough again. Good scope to try your loads out, though. What powders do you have?

 

[Chad280]

Rl 23, RL26, 1/2 lb Retumbo,

 

[SPQR70AD]

I am speaking from what I have learned from two friends about the BAR and hand loading for them. One is a gunsmith and the other was a licensed specialty hand loader for 40+ years.

Number one problem the gunsmith encountered with inaccurate rifles period was messed up crowns. In eastern NC where he had his business much of the deer hunting involved hunting with dogs. Shotguns with buckshot were used mostly in the woods and swamps but there were lots of times were fields were involved and rifles were used and the BAR was very popular because mostly shots were at running deer.
Most often these hunters would drive up in their truck to a certain spot on a dirt road around the field and either shoot off the hood of the truck or off the top of the cab as a rest. Here is what messed up their crown of the rifle. Most would carry their rifles with the muzzle resting on the carpet of the floor while driving. With the sand and dirt in that carpet it acted like sand paper on the crown. A quick fix to restore a crown is this. Get a BRASS round head bolt larger than the size of the bore of the rifle. Chuck the threaded end of the bolt in a variable speed hand drill. Get some valve grinding compound and apply a dab to the rounded bolt head. With the rifle held in a vice horizontally run the drill at a slow speed and hold the round bolt head against the muzzle of the rifle with slight pressure for about 30 seconds. Clean the muzzle and with a magnifying glass check the crown to see if it has been cut sharp all the way around. If not repeat the process until the crown is restored sharp. Clean rifle bore good to remove any compound. This had turned rifles that shot patterns into nice group shooters.

You gave not much information on your load or set up for shooting or what scope you are using. What bullet are you shooting? If you are not shooting off a level solid bench with a good front and rear support you can't shoot good groups. Shooting off of lead sleds will also cause bad grouping because it does not allow the rifle to recoil like it does from off the shoulder. If you are using a scope with low magnification or with heavy reticle or with parallax problems this will cause you to not be able to shoot consistently good groups no matter the accuracy of the rifle.

Now from the hand loading friend's experience with the BAR and 7 mag. (I called him to ask about your problem.)
He said to use H4350 for 150 to 160 gr bullets. It is temp stable and has been what he has found shoots best. For the most part he was loading for deer hunters and they wanted either the Hornady 154 gr Interlock or SST because they seamed to kill deer better than most any other bullet. You can not get the velocity with H4350 as you can with slower burning powders but for the BAR this is what shoot best. He said and I agree the game will not know the difference between a bullet going 100 fps or so faster than a slower one if you put the bullet where it needs to go. A fast miss is still a miss. Here is what he learned to do. Get a Lee Factory Crimp Die and use it. With the recoil of the 7 mag. as well as the semi auto loading of the round bullets can and do in many instances move. This will cause those fliers. Use a medium crimp and it does not have to have a cannelure on the bullet. This will hold the bullet form moving and also help apply the same neck tension to all rounds.
He said that the BAR as a whole is one of the most accurate semi auto hunting rifles he has worked with.
Good luck in your endeavor.

on the site Rifle shooter they cut barrels down on various calibers to show velocity loss. one guy did it with a hacksaw others with chop saws. never crowned the barrels some were cut on angles and they still shot small groups

 

[Evan]

I'd be more interested in where the first shot goes. If you shoot 1 then let it cool for 5 minutes before shooting again, does the group get smaller? Some hunting rifles I've played with will shoot the 1st shot to a very consistent point of aim but then start throwing all the following shots out. These guns are great hunting rifles despite paper groups in the 2 MOA range because you never need to fire more than once.

 

[Chad280]

First shot is where I aim. I’m goi g to load 30 rounds and do some different tests with it.

 

[rockhound78]

Friend had a BAR in 308. It was very touchy in how he held the thing when we shot. Had to be the same, every time, or groups would open up. If he was real careful, it would group just under an inch @100yds. If he got sloppy just a bit, groups would go up to 2"-3" fast.

 

[284winner]

Rl 23, RL26, 1/2 lb Retumbo,

H1000 doesn't seem to be extinct around me. It's a great 7mm mag powder option with 160 class bullets