A shocking lack of safe gun handling practices

[jelenko]

Now you're saying "alleged". So you're calling me a liar as you put more words in my mouth? I'm finished with you. You've earned your place on the list. You have a good day now.

Kudos for the patience you've shown.
I put him on the list this morning.

ETA. I knew a fellow long time ago. Everything was a competition. He always had to be right/the winner.
He would often try to rephrase what the other person was saying so he could say it was wrong. That would lead to arguing about the meaning of the words. I finally learned to just walk away.

 

[miningshawn]

Non-military would be absolutely apoplectic being around crew-served weapons in theater......

That being said, I believe bolt removed and muzzle down (or downrange when changing positions) is perfectly acceptable at competitions.

 

[Kevin57]

Non-military would be absolutely apoplectic being around crew-served weapons in theater......

That being said, I believe bolt removed and muzzle down (or downrange when changing positions) is perfectly acceptable at competitions.

Safe is first order of business. I have seen several people killed in accidents while playing Army. It was never the weapons fault. The amount of barking by RO’s and safety drills was crazy. Sweep your team member in the tire house with a muzzle and you were out right them. It took them 30 seconds and you were GONE.
I’m really tired of the fake SOG people and know it alls that want to lecture everyone with their hysteria. Kind of like Tampon Tim lecturing us on honor and masculinity.

I follow the rule to the letter that covers the type of match I’m shooting. Flags, great. Whatever the rules are. Behind the line when the range is cold…great.
I think everyone should. I am often just a guest.

I wish everyone well and good shooting.

 

[ORjeff]

Thanks for all the awesome replies.

As you know gun sports are an inherently dangerous activity but are actually one of the least dangerous activities I engage in (when everyone does their part). Between rock climbing/mountaineering, motorcycles, and the construction work I've done I have been almost dead more times than I can recall, drenched in another man's blood, and have been up close and personnal with around 10 corpses. I've also been personally responsible for the safety of others numerous times so I take safety very seriously and as an engineer I approach safety with an academic thoroughness.

A well designed safety protocol includes multiple layers of redundancy, disciplined execution, and a culture that is intollerant of non-conformance. Convienience is not on the list on concerns. Prior to the experience I spoke of in my original post I would often insert a chamber flag and pull the bolt before casing my rifle just because it made sense, it has never been a requirement. Holding myself to a higher standard is just who I am. Going forward I will be doing both religously, it only takes a couple of seconds so there's no reason to not do so. As such the flag becomes the primary method for ensuring the rifle is safe by ensuring there is no round in the chamber. I assume I am not a perfect person so by habitually pulling the bolt I add a layer of reduncancy, a secondary method of ensuring the rifle is safe even if I manage to FU method one.

When the risk to be avoided is a serious or lethal injury to myself or another I believe two layers of redundancy are prudent, therefore I will also be doing one more thing. Someone commented that carrying a gun horizontally in a case is no different that doing so uncased. I agreee, especially with the hair triggers commonly used in competition. In fact it's arguably worse because no one can inspect the rifle after it's been cased. So, this weekend I will be sewing a shoulder strap to my rifle case so that I can carry my cased gun muzzle up. Not only does this add the second layer of reduncancy that I have concluded is necesary but it's also my way of demonstrating to those around me that I give a shit. Leading through exemplary action is what distinguishes the old men from the old boys.

I hope I'm preaching to the choir when I ask that you go beyond just following the rules. Hold yourself to a higher standard, it's a win/win for all of us.

To those that aren't in the choir...I no longer practice but I am also an attorney. I was taught to convince a jury that the defendant should be found liable by arguing: they should have, they could have, they didn't. It is very easy to avoid becoming the subject of that conversation, doing so is in your better interest.

PS...I really like requiring that the score keeper (or someone else) inspects the rifle before it's cased. I encourage any of you that run shoots to include this in your protocol.

 

[miningshawn]

Safe is first order of business. I have seen several people killed in accidents while playing Army. It was never the weapons fault. The amount of barking by RO’s and safety drills was crazy. Sweep your team member in the tire house with a muzzle and you were out right them. It took them 30 seconds and you were GONE.
I’m really tired of the fake SOG people and know it alls that want to lecture everyone with their hysteria. Kind of like Tampon Tim lecturing us on honor and masculinity.

I follow the rule to the letter that covers the type of match I’m shooting. Flags, great. Whatever the rules are. Behind the line when the range is cold…great.
I think everyone should. I am often just a guest.

I wish everyone well and good shooting.

Whoa there.

A little context. I served on patrol boats for over a decade - regular load out of M240, M2HB, and MK19 - and yes, they were loaded. I worked next to other boats with the same load out - I got "muzzle swept" by condition red (in Army speak) weapons multiple times per HOUR. In all of my time as a patrol leader, that would be up to 8 boats and 40 crew with 32 crew-served weapons, I have experienced exactly 0 ND's. The Army units around us? Not so lucky I guess.

I didn't claim SOG or anything else.

Maybe they were SOG? We didn't "play", we deployed.

 

[Kevin57]

Nobody said you did. Don’t know where that came from. Don’t think we have messaged.
My point was only in the tire house in my time (old school) live fire clearing room drills, if you swept your team member with a muzzle you were gone. Live fire clearing was not something to take lightly.

Rifles without bolts as is the custom in short range benchest are safe. Until an idiot puts one back in with a round left in the chamber.

I referenced a hysterical asshat that came unglued at a skeet tournament because someone coming off the course with a broken open over and under shotgun turned to place his shotgun in the storage rack.

We have so many people pretending at the ranges around here that they are ‘call of duty’ warriors it is pathetic. Ghillied up folks that can’t shoot, and are so quick to tell you what you need to do to achieve their “greatness”. Or lecture you about their experiences and expect you to do what they think regardless of the rules or common sense. If someone puts a bolt back in a rifle with a round in the chamber and pulls the trigger it’s his fault. He was unsafe. You can’t fix stupid. But according to some…if we just had chamber flags there would be no risk. Or some other fix for stupid. Just doesn’t work in real life. There was an idiot who filed a trigger sear on a AK and took it to a local range. It went full auto and I believe someone was hurt. No rule fixes that.

We have a range where they want to ram a cleaning rod down a match barrel to make sure it’s clear. Not mine, so I don’t go there.

I built a covered 200 yard benchrest range. I don’t have to deal with them.

Be well, be safe and have fun. Hope the hysterical blowhards stay home and play their video games.

 

[bobinpa]

Visiting Trap and Skeet match's will give you the willies......

I shoot more trap and skeet than anything else and I rarely see anything dangerous or scarey... What makes you scared at those matches?

 

[bobinpa]

On Memorial Day, we attended a service at a small rural cemetery where my wife's father is buried (WW2 Purple Heart recipient for injuries at the Battle Of The Bulge). The VFW Honor Guard did a very good job but how they handled the M1's was more than a bit scary. One member put the butt on the ground, grabbed the muzzle and with it pointed right at his face...tried to cycle it with his right foot.

The service over, all 10 M1's...not unloaded...got piled into a lump in the back of a pickup and off they went to the next cemetery.

I asked about how they handled loading the guns. They loaded them full in the morning, shot two at each service and had four services.

Just out of curiosity - were they using blanks or live ammo. The Honor Guard that my brother serves on has never used live ammo.

 

[Kevin57]

Just out of curiosity - were they using blanks or live ammo. The Honor Guard that my brother serves on has never used live ammo.

They fired blanks at my Dads funeral. They gave my sister the casings. I don’t think anybody uses live ammo for that.

 

[jackieschmidt]

When I was at Ft Riley Kansas, I was Sgt of The Guard once for an elderly Veteran’s Funeral. That was in 1968.
The Detail fired blanks out of M-14’s.

 

[PDS]

Just out of curiosity - were they using blanks or live ammo. The Honor Guard that my brother serves on has never used live ammo.

Honor Guard uses blanks
Firing Squad uses live ammo

 

[C BOSSE]

Have worked a public range as a NRA RSO, for a few years once a month as volunteer, just so i didn't have to pay for range fees. Know matter how experienced any one thinks they are, all general safety standard operating procedures should always be enforced. Also any sanctioned match will have a match director that will usually be very vocal in minutes spoken before the match starts. they are usually very grateful to here and help with any overlooked issues. And as a new shooter to the curriculum you will soon learn that the empty chamber indicator, or all bolts out or competitor will be disqualified usually is adequate.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Trying to compare live fire training in a close environment to a match with bolts removed lacks common sense. Like saying you must wear safety glasses or ear protection. We are adults,we can assume risk at our choosing as long as it does not endanger others.Biggest risk of any match is driving to and from it. Stop being the nanny police beyond common sense. How many times I I heard shooters say let's stop on the way home for beer and burgers and then drive the rest of the way home. How many are texting the wife on the way home saying I will be home for supper? Post #132, an example of good common sense.

 

[Webster]

So I participated in my first Fclass competition this weekend. Overall I had a very good time and I learned a lot. Unfortunately that includes how casual many people, which I have reasons to believe are very experienced in competitions, are when it comes to handling a gun. I lost count of the number of times I saw a gun pointed at me or someone else, or just sitting there pointed at the whole crowd. Yeah, it was probably unloaded and being a newbie I chose to keep my mouth shut. I grew up in a world where gun safety was taken seriously, where the muzzle up rule was an absolute. I'm still in shock at how many competitors violated this very basic concept and how lax the RO's were in enforcement. Very disappointing. I just sent my 90 year old father a big thank you for raising me right, he can be a real ass sometimes but I kinda wish he was there this weekend... he would not have kept his mouth shut and no one would ever forget it.

I shoot at a well know range. There is no safety person on the range. Everyone is on their own.. Once about 10 years ago an older guy was shooting a semi-auto 22RF. When his friends went done range he was still on the rifle with his finger on the trigger. I said something to him and he ignored me. I'm sure a round was in the chamber with the safety off. I think the range doesn't have a bolt out rule when your not shooting.

 

[KMW 1954]

I shoot at a well know range. There is no safety person on the range. Everyone is on their own..

I have been working as an RO at one of if not the largest public range in Wisconsin 2 to 3 day per week for the past almost 5 years. What I have witnessed personally and repeatedly by not just new shooters but also well seasoned vets in that time has convinced me I will never again shoot at an unattended range.

There are people out there that have absolute disregard for the basic gun handling rules of etiquette, or safety. I know I don't want to get shot even though my work puts me in that position, I also do not want to witness anyone else getting shot. Plan and simple that is the Bottom Line.