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A scorer's duties

Turbulent Turtle

F-TR competitor
I know we've talked about this in the past, but what I saw last weekend at TSRA prompted me to broach the subject again. I was unable to attend the first day of shooting but after I had concluded my other obligations, I drove to the range to observe and get into the spirit for the next day.

Most people think of scoring as a relaxing part of the match and they can just slack off and just scribble a few things because they have little to do. That is so wrong and on so many levels.

First and foremost, the scorer is acting as a safety officer. We had a situation last year where some yahoo was making "funny" comments about shooting during the prep period. I was a shooter on the line at that time and this was occurring several positions over on my right. Nobody told that jerk to shut up and sure enough we had someone next to him fire a round during the prep period. After a little bit of an argument, the shooter got off only losing 10 points, a miss on his first for record. His scorer let him down, and if I had been in charge of the line, I would have tracked down the comedian and sent him or her home.

This year, as usual, we had a few crossfires. When they occurred, everyone was screaming crossfire, crossfire but the interesting part is that in a least one case, the crossfire was not attributed to anyone. How could that be? Simple, the scorer was not doing his job and someone got away shooting on someone else's target without affecting his or her score. Not only that but the line, or at least a few shooters to the right or left of the target that was crossfired on were disrupted for a bit. All that because the scorer didn't do his or her job.

Observing the line, I noticed that most of the scorers have their eye glued to the spotting scope during the entire relay. Some of them had to be reminded by their shooter to call out the score at times or to call for a mark. That last one is too much. Not to worry though, I see this at many matches including Nationals and even Worlds.

We all drift off during scoring, especially if the pace is slow and it's hot and you're tired and old. I know, because I've done it.

As a scorer I want to be as unobtrusive as I can but give the proper feedback and stay alert. The first thing I do is position myself close to my shooter but far enough away as to not be in his or her way. I want to be able to announce the score and round count without having to scream it. We have people who bellow the score and round count for their shooter loud enough everyone on the line knows it. You don't want to do that; just loud enough for your shooter to hear, not the person in the pits.

Next, I try to get the score card way before the shooter gets on the mat; nothing like a quick jog back to the parking lot or a mad scramble through the equipment to get the shooter ready for the match.

I verify with the shooter as to what information he or she wants and I stick to that. Some people like to be reminded that their last shot is coming up, others do not. I have evolved to the point where I do not like to be reminded and that's my default position as a scorer. Unless my shooter is a tyro, I'm certain he or she will properly indicate to me when it's time for record. For a newbie, I will remind him or her to let me know.

Until we get to prep time, it is my duty as scorer to make sure my shooter has the ECI inserted at all times and safety rules are being observed.

When prep time starts, I remind my shooter that we are in prep time and add "No Ammo." I then keep an eye on him or her as many remove their ECI at that time and open up there box of ammunition. I have stopped a few people from putting a cartridge in the chamber during prep time; it's rare, but it has happened.

When prep time is over, I wish my shooter luck with something like: "Target 12. Good luck, Joe."

I keep an eye on my shooter all the time. When the bolt closes on a cartridge, I'll glance at the target line to make sure the target is up and I keep looking at the shooter. It's easy to see the target line and make sure the target is not going down before the shot. I can even do this looking through the spotting scope with my right eye and watching my shooter with my left eye.

When my shooter takes the shot, I wait for about 2 seconds and if the target it not going down, I am getting ready to call for a mark within a another second or two, I am calling for the mark, not my shooter. As scorer, that is my job. Every time my shooter fires, the target MUST come down and be scored. If my shooter crossfired, I will know and mark the score accordingly.

If I see the target has gone down and my shooter has not fired, I will so inform the shooter. Then if the target is not back up within a few seconds (scored or not,) I will call for the target to come back up. I will tell my shooter to disregard whatever score it may have. I do not announce to the world and demand to know who crossfired on the target. I don't care, it's not my business. All I know is that my shooter did not shoot and we continue. (Internally, I sure hope that the scorer of the person who crossfired is doing his or her job and calling for a mark on their target.)

If a cease fire is called I will so instruct my shooter and make sure he or she follows the directions from the match director. This could be anything from stop, to open bolt and insert ECI, to whatever. It is my job as a "safety officer" to make sure my shooter complies with the commands. The shooter may be in a state of confusion coming out of a total focus on a shot, I try to provide calm directions. The last thing I want to do is say something like "What's going on? Why the cease fire?" That's not important. What is important is that directions from the MD are followed. Then the shooter can relax.

During the relay, I provide value and shot count. I am ready to relay the time remaining and so on but I keep the talk to a bare minimum. I also will motion for others to shut their trap and go elsewhere if they want to talk. Some people like to discuss their just completed string with their scorers and others, and that's fine but do it elsewhere. I don't like people coming to talk to me while I am scoring; I try to focus on my shooter as much as possible but we are all human.

When the last shot is taken, I tell my shooter: "All out, insert your ECI," and I wait for him or her to do that. Some matches have the scorer and shooter sign that the ECI is in. If the shooter gets up and lifts his or her rifle without an ECI, you have failed as a scorer and in some venues you can be disqualified along with the shooter. I have seen ECIs fall after being inserted and the rifle lifted. Just tell the shooter and deal with it.

Make sure to get the last score and then add up the scores. Please do it correctly. I have had to ask my scorers several times over the years to re-add my score as they had made a mistake, I find the mistake is usually in my favor and it irks me to ask them to reduce my score; I can't remember when someone gave me a lower score than what I shot. On the other hand, I have been shorted Xs as many times and I have been given too many.

After the competitor has signed the card, I, as the scorer, must hand it to an official and then I may help the shooter remove his or her junk from the line, especially if I'm shooting next.
 
Totally agree with you.
At the TSRA match, David Mann shot a 200 on his second string and he was getting ready to get up when his score keeper informed him that he had 5 shots to go! David had been shooting fast and the score keeper missed 5 SHOTS!!!! David, after expressing his emotions, had to get down and shoot 5 more shots that luckily were all 10's and X's and then went on to shoot a 600 for the day, but that could have easily cost him that amazing aggregate score.

I have a "meeting" with the other shooters on my point before the match. I tell them they will get the best pit service of their life but I expect the same. I also tell them that we are a "team" and that no one else matters and that we are there to serve each other.
 
+1. Amen. Well said. Nothing irritates me more than listening to my scorer talk about anything other than my previous shot.
 
+1. I have seen the person scoring, texting on their phone and talking to others when they should be paying attention. I had one person scoring for me that I believe fell asleep. He quit calling out score half way through the match. I saw one case where the "experienced" scorer, asked what is the red circle on the side of the target. Working with juniors, I ask them what is your biggest responsibility at a match, they usually answer to shoot 10's and X's. I tell them that after knowing the match program, it is scoring. And then pit service. What they do or don't do will effect some one else. New shooters need to learn and hopefully they will have a mentor to learn from before it causes a problem for someone else.
 
Several years ago I was squaded with a young boy at his first match. I shot first and he scored me for exactly one shot and couldn't keep up with me and the puller. I suspected something was wrong when he went quiet but knowing I was on a fresh target I just kept rolling. The range officer just happened by near the end of my string and had a heart attack when he saw the blank card, lol Everyone was excited behind me but I just kept waving them off trying to stop me. It all worked out and the boy did just fine after the BIG SCARE he endured at his first match. We are all at the mercy of the human factor in Fclass. I was just explaining to someone last night about being Flexable with our shooting style to survive in Fclass.
 
Everything Denys says is dead on. To me this is the most telling-
Observing the line, I noticed that most of the scorers have their eye glued to the spotting scope during the entire relay.

It is my experience and also my opinion as a shooter and a MD that the over the years I have seen this one thing contribute to more shots not being scored and unaccounted for crossfires than I can count.
We had a shooter and scorer get in an argument once because the scorer was calling for a target to be marked and the shooter hadn't even shot yet. Not only was the scorer locked onto his scope and not watching his shooter, but he was also on the WRONG target, too.

As a part of my safety and responsibility brief before a match I cover this-
"Scorers, watch your shooter to make sure he shoots, look after he shoots to make sure the target goes down, score the target when it comes up. If it does not go down call for a mark."


Rick
 
I am glad to see this subject getting some attention. I think the examples cited are probably referring to F Class although it could be more general than that because I have seen these identical issues in the other high power rifle match disciplines as well and for many years before the advent of F Class. I think what makes this problem more obvious is the significant infusion of new and inexperienced folks to high power rifle competition by way of F Class. This increase in participation in the sport is great for the shooting sport but to have such a significant increase by new folks is a challenge to both the match directors and the experienced competitors to better manage this situation. This is not just another job for the match director but a challenge to all of us in the sport to help solve this problem.
 
Excellent post.

Cross fires - do you guys give them time to find the hole and patch it? Its frustrating to wait if you have been hammering and suddenly they have to find a shot way off - but I have seen the call for the target to come back up no shot fired and there is hole there thats not yours...next shot...or two shooters on...next shot....WTF.

Or do you guys have different pit protocols that mitigate this?
 
T-Rex, we run F-Class and Prone together. It happens to them all. The example I cited was 2 prone shooter, but the F folks have their share, too. It's equal opportunity. :)
 
6BRinNZ said:
Excellent post.

Cross fires - do you guys give them time to find the hole and patch it? Its frustrating to wait if you have been hammering and suddenly they have to find a shot way off - but I have seen the call for the target to come back up no shot fired and there is hole there thats not yours...next shot...or two shooters on...next shot....WTF.

Or do you guys have different pit protocols that mitigate this?
Yes, give them time to find the hole and score the hit, not patch the hole. Your score keeper will know you did not fire and the target went down from a cross fire. If they pull the target and do not find a hole they should score it a miss if there was a call for a mark or show it as a withdrawn target if they inadvertently pulled it.
 
Denys,

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except this part.

When my shooter takes the shot, I wait for about 2 seconds and if the target it not going down, I am getting ready to call for a mark within a another second or two, I am calling for the mark, not my shooter. As scorer, that is my job.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the shooter's responsibility to manage their time, on their target, not the scorer's. As the scorer I will *ask* them if they want me to call for a mark, and certainly do so if that is what they want. If they're okay with it, I may start calling for the mark for them without asking every single time. But its the shooter's target, and their block of time, not mine. Ultimately it's their choice.

YMMV,

Monte
 
memilanuk said:
Denys,

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except this part.

When my shooter takes the shot, I wait for about 2 seconds and if the target it not going down, I am getting ready to call for a mark within a another second or two, I am calling for the mark, not my shooter. As scorer, that is my job.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the shooter's responsibility to manage their time, on their target, not the scorer's. As the scorer I will *ask* them if they want me to call for a mark, and certainly do so if that is what they want. If they're okay with it, I may start calling for the mark for them without asking every single time. But its the shooter's target, and their block of time, not mine. Ultimately it's their choice.

YMMV,

Monte
+1 it is the shooters responsibility. The scorer must verify if the target goes down, but not call for the mark. I hate it when the scorer asks me "did they pull it"? And I hate it should be call for a mark when none is needed.
 
memilanuk said:
Denys,

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except this part.

When my shooter takes the shot, I wait for about 2 seconds and if the target it not going down, I am getting ready to call for a mark within a another second or two, I am calling for the mark, not my shooter. As scorer, that is my job.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the shooter's responsibility to manage their time, on their target, not the scorer's. As the scorer I will *ask* them if they want me to call for a mark, and certainly do so if that is what they want. If they're okay with it, I may start calling for the mark for them without asking every single time. But its the shooter's target, and their block of time, not mine. Ultimately it's their choice.

YMMV,

Monte

I totally understand your position but the way I see it it's right at the crux of the matter with crossfires. The competitor took a shot and the target did not go down. As a scorer, it is your duty to get each shot scored and record the score. Yes, it is the competitor's block of time, but it is your responsibility to get the score. The shooter may have realized that he or she just shot the wrong target and maybe by not calling for a mark it will be overlooked. This can easily occur if the scorer is new or asleep or whatnot. Acting as a scorer, if I see my shooter take a shot and the target does not go down, I believe it is my duty to call for a mark and record whatever comes up.

Now I looked in the rules last night and could not find anything about that right away, so I'll look some more. If I don't find anything, it will be a question that I will ask the NRA referee at the Nationals. Seems I always have one or two questions like this every year.
 
I have a question about responsibility. When the puller is trying to give fast pit service, and forgets to move the scoring disc. Who's call is it to get the proper score? I've seen shooters and scorers calmly discuss the hit and agree on a proper score. A few years ago I was shooting, I had been hitting 10-x's then up comes the target with the spotter in the 9 ring and scoring disc still marked a 10. My scorer immediately starts calling challenge on target xx. Now I'm turning around to find what's all going on, then waiting for target. If he would have just said to me, that looks like a 9. I would have agreed and moved on. Now at another match this happened. The scorer calls out an x, and the next target says that shot is in the 9 ring. The scorer replies, it's marked as an x so that's what I write down.
 
The scorer's job is to get the score right for each shot. If a shot is taken, and the target is not pulled, the scorer must find out if there is a hole in the target. The scorer will have to ask for the target to be pulled, and if no hole is found, the score for that shot is "M". Rule 14.6: All Shots Count.
 
Ringostar said:
I have a question about responsibility. When the puller is trying to give fast pit service, and forgets to move the scoring disc. Who's call is it to get the proper score? I've seen shooters and scorers calmly discuss the hit and agree on a proper score. A few years ago I was shooting, I had been hitting 10-x's then up comes the target with the spotter in the 9 ring and scoring disc still marked a 10. My scorer immediately starts calling challenge on target xx. Now I'm turning around to find what's all going on, then waiting for target. If he would have just said to me, that looks like a 9. I would have agreed and moved on. Now at another match this happened. The scorer calls out an x, and the next target says that shot is in the 9 ring. The scorer replies, it's marked as an x so that's what I write down.

The target could have had two holes in it, one of which was a crossfire. If two people were working the target in the pits, one may have plugged the "9", which was the hole he saw, and the other may have scored the "X", which was the hole he saw. It needs to be pulled back down, and replugged, or whatever needs to be done, depending on the findings. If the situation is what I mentioned, the correct score is the higher score of the two holes. Plug both holes. Rule 14.10(b)(1).
 
This is really informational to me !! I haven't shot a F TR match yet....next month I'm going to attempt to shoot a mid range match in New Holland.
Thanks again
 
This is great information. All of this is covered in the NRA HP rulebook. I agree with Monte it is the competitors responsibility to call for a mark.
 
280man said:
This is great information. All of this is covered in the NRA HP rulebook. I agree with Monte it is the competitors responsibility to call for a mark.

If you are scoring, and the shooter fires a shot, but the target is not pulled, then the shooter fires another shot, after which the target is pulled as usual, what would you do? I see the shooter's responsibility as shooting, and the scorer is responsible (to the shooter and to the other shooters) for scoring. I also think the shooter should call for the mark, but if he doesn't, what then?
 
jim_k said:
280man said:
This is great information. All of this is covered in the NRA HP rulebook. I agree with Monte it is the competitors responsibility to call for a mark.

If you are scoring, and the shooter fires a shot, but the target is not pulled, then the shooter fires another shot, after which the target is pulled as usual, what would you do? I see the shooter's responsibility as shooting, and the scorer is responsible (to the shooter and to the other shooters) for scoring. I also think the shooter should call for the mark, but if he doesn't, what then?

I still can't find anything in the rule book about who should call for a mark, but I did find a reference about who should know the proper commands for such things and when to use them. The first person listed is the scorer. The shooter is not mentioned.

10.15 Telephone Messages—Messages between firing line and pit will be limited to official matters. Requests such as to mark, or to place or reverse spotters, may be handled by telephone or radio operators. Information on rifle calibers, which could affect scores, or requests to correct or speed up the service on a target, will be transmitted only by a Range Officer to a Pit Officer. The following standard messages are to be used as stated, for the indicated purposes; Scorers, Range and Pit Officers, telephone or radio operators, and pit markers must know these messages and their meanings.
“MARK TARGET NO.—”–means to pull the target, spot the shot hole and signal the value of the shot. (This message is used when a shot has been fired but the target has not been pulled within a reasonable length of time.)

Definitely my 2015 question for the ref at the Nationals.
 

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