A fun reloading choose your own adventure thread - 223 in TR

[RDavies]

Just wondering, since you say it shoots well some days and not others, what is your twist rate? Could it be that you have a marginal twist and that it shoots well on warm days (less dense air) and not on cooler days (more dense air) when the bullets will be marginally stable? What is the forecast like for the next few days?
If it is for warm weather it might work well, if it will be cool weather, maybe put your gun away and just harass other shooters, telling them that you would have spotted the wind changes they all missed.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Here's a pic of some 300 yard load dev testing.

For reference, these two groups were shot after I had done my initial powder charge node testing, and was working on seating depth.

Groups were shot at 300 yards, and are seated .003 apart.

The very next day I loaded up the exact same load, that seemingly shot well. It shot identical to the 3" group. The following day, I reshot, and it shot back around the 1" mark. Basically, just very inconsistent.

As far as temps, I've been in pretty stable temps. Anywhere from 88-95 the past few weeks.

I'm pulling the match round down now. I'll re-test again from 24-24.3 to see if that stabilizes things.

 

[Jdne5b]

The 2775fps area is pretty good if for some reason you dont get 2800+ to work. Had a buddy that ran that speed with Varget and it hammered.

Like Ned, the 88s tuned in for me about 2750fps. Im jamming them .010.

 

[MGYSGT]

For mid range are 90's really necessary?

 

[Ned Ludd]

For mid range are 90's really necessary?

The 90s make a difference. You don't have to use them...the 80s can work for MR, but the 90s are a noticeably better option when competing with a lot of shooters using .308 Win.

FWIW Jeremy, the 2750 fps MV I mentioned was for the SMK 95s. The 88s tuned in for me with Varget at about 2830-ish in a rifle with a 30" barrel and 0.220" freebore.


At the end of the day, I think the very best reloading advice I can give to someone using a .223 Rem in F-TR is to load up Berger's 200.20X bullet at ~.010" off the lands in .308 Win Palma brass over ~43.5 gr Varget and never look back.

 

[Jdne5b]

The 90s make a difference. You don't have to use them...the 80s can work for MR, but the 90s are a noticeably better option when competing with a lot of shooters using .308 Win.

FWIW Jeremy, the 2750 fps MV I mentioned was for the SMK 95s. The 88s tuned in for me with Varget at about 2830-ish in a rifle with a 30" barrel and 0.220" freebore.


At the end of the day, I think the very best reloading advice I can give to someone using a .223 Rem in F-TR is to load up Berger's 200.20X bullet at ~.010" off the lands in .308 Win Palma brass over ~43.5 gr Varget and never look back.

Yes you're right I was tired from driving 10 hours and now I'm driving the remaining three.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

For mid range are 90's really necessary?

For 300 yard MR, definitely not. For 600 yard MR when you know you'll be shooting against 200.20Xs, 215s, 204s etc. I'd be shooting the 90s, or not shooting a .223 at all. At least, that was the thinking going into this project.

The 90/223 combo is basically the same thing as the 185/30 combo, except with less recoil. That should work well, however nobody I know is shooting 185s anymore at a 'serious' match; even at 600 yard mid-range.

The 88s do offer an interesting alternative, but as others have pointed out, they really do need a lot of freebore, and the fact that they're Hornady ELDMs is also working against them.

Now that the rage is starting to wear off, I may go back and retry the 90s again...starting at 23.4, and working up to 24.2 max...just to see if I can find something consistently good.

 

[Ned Ludd]

For 300 yard MR, definitely not. For 600 yard MR when you know you'll be shooting against 200.20Xs, 215s, 204s etc. I'd be shooting the 90s, or not shooting a .223 at all. At least, that was the thinking going into this project.

The 90/223 combo is basically the same thing as the 185/30 combo, except with less recoil. That should work well, however nobody I know is shooting 185s anymore at a 'serious' match; even at 600 yard mid-range.

The 88s do offer an interesting alternative, but as others have pointed out, they really do need a lot of freebore, and the fact that they're Hornady ELDMs is also working against them.

Now that the rage is starting to wear off, I may go back and retry the 90s again...starting at 23.4, and working up to 24.2 max...just to see if I can find something consistently good.

FWIW - I was very pleasantly surprised at the uniformity/consistency of the 88 ELDMs. They also tuned in for me with Varget quite easily. The only issue I had with them was a couple jacket failures in a 6.8-twist barrel that has also blown up 90 VLDs. I most definitely plan to revisit the 88s in the near future with a 7.0-twist barrel, I just don't currently have any chambered with a longer freebore (0.220"). The 88 has a pretty long bearing surface and I believe it really needs more freebore than the 223 Rem ISSF reamer provides (0.169").

Other than that, my initial experience with the 88 suggests it's a good design. In addition, in side-by-side velocity/BC comparisons with pointed 90 VLDs using LabRadar data, the 88 ELDM consistently gave a predicted G7 BC slightly over 0.300. By comparison, pointed 90 VLDs in my hands typically run around 0.290. So the 88 box value BC may actually be a bit conservative. In any event, it may turn out to be a very good alternative to the 90 VLD for F-TR with the .223 Rem.

 

[BP1]

I can tell you folks Mike is about as dedicated to learning this sport as anyone I know.What he isn’t telling y’all is he left Houston Saturday after the match and drove back to Austin loaded up more ammo and took his wife out to eat then drove his happy azz back to Houston for the Sunday match.If that isn’t dedication I don’t know what is.

 

[liseo]

After wasting 300 plus 90 VLD bullets in my custon SSR rifle with krieger 1/7 tw barrel and groups in the one inch size range, I give up.
Now, I use 73 Berger BT bullets( not the best wind bucking bullet in the earth) in 1/9 tw barrel and my life is easier.

*English is not my native language, sorry for the mistakes

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I can tell you folks Mike is about as dedicated to learning this sport as anyone I know.What he isn’t telling y’all is he left Houston Saturday after the match and drove back to Austin loaded up more ammo and took his wife out to eat then drove his happy azz back to Houston for the Sunday match.If that isn’t dedication I don’t know what is.

Hah, thanks Otis. What can I say? When you got no talent, you gotta have drive!

 

[MGYSGT]

After burning up a bunch of 80 and 80.5's and still not finding the bullet, Berger now has a 80.5 Hybrid. So back to the load bench for another try. That is, if I can find them.

 

[liseo]

No luck with Berger 80,5 FB either. Better results with Berger 82 BT

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I don't understand your thinking, in the brass you are using. I would think you'd want to use matching brass of good quality. Brass is the cheapest part of the re-loading equation.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

I don't understand your thinking, in the brass you are using. I would think you'd want to use matching brass of good quality. Brass is the cheapest part of the re-loading equation.

Nick, using bulk purchased, once fired M16/.mil brass was the last thing I'd intentionally do in a match....that was the problem...it was my last option.

A quick timeline for context.

Woke up at 3AM Sat to be in Houston by 6:30AM for Day 1 of match.
Shoot day 1....shoot a 184 and 180 in dead calm conditions. Bad load.
Only have more of the same ammo for Day 2.
Drive back home (3.5hrs) to load more ammo; arrive at ~6:30PM.
All my 'match' brass has been shot and needs to be resized/tumbled etc.
Only .223 brass I have is this shitty military stuff.
It was ~7:45PM by the time I was actually loading stuff on the bench.
Had to be in the truck/on the road by 3AM the following day to make the match in time, and needed some sleep so I didn't pass out at the wheel.

So that's how we arrived at using crappy brass. Only/Last option.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Nick, using bulk purchased, once fired M16/.mil brass was the last thing I'd intentionally do in a match....that was the problem...it was my last option.

A quick timeline for context.

Woke up at 3AM Sat to be in Houston by 6:30AM for Day 1 of match.
Shoot day 1....shoot a 184 and 180 in dead calm conditions. Bad load.
Only have more of the same ammo for Day 2.
Drive back home (3.5hrs) to load more ammo; arrive at ~6:30PM.
All my 'match' brass has been shot and needs to be resized/tumbled etc.
Only .223 brass I have is this shitty military stuff.
It was ~7:45PM by the time I was actually loading stuff on the bench.
Had to be in the truck/on the road by 3AM the following day to make the match in time, and needed some sleep so I didn't pass out at the wheel.

So that's how we arrived at using crappy brass. Only/Last option.

Now I understand. You accomplished a lot in a very limited time. I am currently having a .223 benchrest rifle built. First thing I did was purchase 300 pieces of Lapua brass. All the same batch. Should last me the life of the barrel. LC brass, if properly sorted and prepared, can work really well but it is not Lapua. At least the first re-sizing of LC, should be with a small base die, to get it fully formed to factory specs. It's great for Ar rifles though.

 

[Oso]

Has anyone tried LeverEvolution in their 223? I ran into a fellow shooter and we started comparing notes. He had run XBR8208, but just didn't get the results he wanted. He swore by LeverEvolution. I bought a pound to try out but just haven't gotten around to it.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Leverevolution is a ball powder and more toward slow end of the burn rate range for a .223 Rem, but I'd expect it could certainly work. The main drawback for competition would likely be temperature sensitivity and velocity variance during a long string of fire. I've often wondered about this powder for the reason that Hodgdon Leverevolution and Superformance are the two powders that NEVER seem to be out of stock. They're on the shelves even when all the other more popular powders are nowhere to be found. The Leverevolution might be worth trying for that reason alone.

 

[CharlieNC]

The new 85 Berger looks interesting. Depending on where the node tunes in, maybe similar to performance if the 90 but less finicky. Need some reports!

 

[MikeMcCasland]

The new 85 Berger looks interesting. Depending on where the node tunes in, maybe similar to performance if the 90 but less finicky. Need some reports!

Yep. That announcement couldn't have come at a better time. I ordered 1,000. Expect them in next week to do some testing.

In the interim, I think I'm going to play with the ELDM.