A 204 Dilemma

[2dogs]

I assume in your post you're talking about Factory ammo, I think most people experience the opposite. Factory 32gr ammo delivers 4200 feet per second, and they have a difficult time duplicating that in hand loads. First things first. Verify the speed, some chronographs don't read 20 caliber bullet as easily as 22 caliber.. second, try different ammo. Third, clean and borescope the barrel, looking for anything that could be affecting speed and verify the twist. I would not give up yet on a barrel that produces great accuracy but slow speeds. In my younger days , speed was what I wanted. After rebarreling a handful of 220 Swifts, and 4 204's s. I'm okay if they shoot a little slower.

Yours is great council especially since I read somewhere they were doing a velocity loss test on the 204 by shortening the barrel in increments and the chrono was giving them erratic readings. I will retest with the chrono a little farther out. I will point out the dang S. Texas wind wants to knock the whole thing over all the time and it's getting harder and harder to get somebody to stand out there to hold it up while I do my testing!

 

[2dogs]

Same bullet weight, same speed, same energy. Barrel length, stock configuration, and weight will affect how it recoils and handles. Is your 204 a lighter, shorter rifle than your 223?

Evan, thank you, but no Sir. My two 1/14 223 AI's are 26" with muzzle brakes. One is a Hart, the other is a Shilen Select Match. The Hart is some faster but that Shilen is benchrest accurate. The 204 is a 26" with a factory weight varmint barrel. The stocks are B&C on the Remingtons and the other one is a Savage and it has a HS precision stock so they are all about the same. I also tend to hold the rifles a bit on the firm side.

 

[2dogs]

2dogs,

Let me be upfront about this - I am an unabashed 223 fan, I have been shooting it since acquiring my first 223 rifle in 1970 and have literally fired tens of thousands of rounds of it. I can see my hits just fine with the 40 gr, I have shot the 223 enough that I am familiar with the drops and wind drift which may be a bit more than the 204 but not enough for it to be an issue.
The drop and drift is not all that much different between the 204 and 223 using 40 gr bullets until past 300 yards, and if you are familiar with the drop and drift from a 223 shooting past 300 yds is not really an issue.

Below is my experience with the 204 and the reason I choose the 223 over the 204.

I bought into the 204 Koolaid early on - I already had a Cooper Varminter in 223 then I bought an identical Cooper Varminter in 204. The first thing I noticed was that the recoil using 40 gr bullets was identical to the 223 using 40 gr bullets, in retrospect I should not have really been surprised about it though because the powder charge for the 204 and 223 are virtually identical, the bullet weights are the same, and the rifles were the same, including scopes, the rifle weights were within one ounce of each other. Still hopeful, I tried the 32 gr bullets and the recoil was slightly less but hardly enough to make a noticeable difference.
I used JBM Ballisics and ran the numbers on it and the recoil for the 204 and 223 with 40 gr bullets is identical, the recoil with the 32 gr is only a half-pound ft-lb less.

I chronographed the 32 and 40 gr bullets out of the 204 and was unable to reach advertised velocities with either of them, the 32's were less than 4000 fps and the 40's were right at 3750 fps from the 204, the same velocity I get from my 223 with the 40's. These velocities were using top-end load manual data, I know some folks will claim more but I will bet that they are exceeding load manual recommendations doing it.

The only way to get away from the recoil and rifle jump is to go to one of the smaller 20 calibers such as the VarTarg, use a break, or build a heavier rifle. With the VarTarg and similar cartridges you get into the lack of brass issue, the brass forming, etc. Too much trouble for me, I prefer to keep things simple and concentrate on trigger time instead. If I were to ever try another 20 it would be the VarTarg - that is where the 20 shines but then it less velocity, more drop and wind drift than my 223 has.

I sold my 204 bought more bullets and powder for my 223 and lived happily ever after.

Moral of the story - there are no free lunches.

drover

Drover, I went out and bought several boxes of bullets to give this 204 thing another try. Too many people are having success and the worse that is going to happen is I am going to shoot up some bullets and powder. I fully get the more efficient 20's and would be willing to barrel to one IF somebody will tell me they feed out of a AI magazine! But you are right. The 223 Rocks and there truly is no free lunch.

 

[2dogs]

Larger bore, equal weight bullets and same amount of powder burnt, the velocity winner will be the one with the larger bore. On the flip side, smaller bore with equal weight bullet/s and the BC advantage goes back to the smaller bore.

If you are having trouble spotting your own shots you can either have a muzzle brake installed or go through the process of getting yourself into suppressor ownership. I shoot nearly everything suppressed and what I don't shoot suppressed I have a muzzle brake on.

If I had a factory gun that shot factory ammo under .5 MOA or as the OP describes his gun shooting 3/8 at 100 which is well under .5 MOA I certainly wouldn't be squabbling about 150 fps and instead would be thanking the gun gods I was able to purchase a factory gun that shoots off the shelf ammo into 3/8 groups because that is a near unicorn. I have a $5,000+ full custom Kelbly that won't do that with factory ammo, and you want to mess with it for 150-ish fps?! I think you should just be VERY thankful and call it good.

Believe me I see what you are saying. I realize this is an accurate barrel and this is why I came to you guys for your thoughts. However 3800 is more than 150 fps from 4200 fps with the 32 grain Hornady Superperformance load. At this point I am hoping I had my chrono too close to the muzzle. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[drover]

By my reckoning using JBM, a 10 yard error at 600 (doping for 600, but it's actually 610) results in a 223, 40vmax, 3800fps, missing by 5 inches. A 204, 40vmax, 3800fps, misses by 3 inches. If you're shooting Prarie dogs at 600, then the 204 is going to have a significant advantage in drop. Agree that wind difference is negligable.

Agreed - but they both missed, it's just that the 204 missed by less.

That is the problem with long range shooting at PD's unless you have exact yardages it is extremely difficult to make hits no matter what the caliber. And if you do have exact yardages then it becomes easier because you can dial in the yardage and make hits with either caliber.

Actually it does not make any difference to me because I limit most of my shooting to 300 yards or less and rarely take a longer shot, if the target is further than that I just wait until I am closer.

But we have drifted a long ways from the original topic which was the OP getting low velocities with his 204 which can also have a great effect on trajectory.

drover

 

[drover]

Drover, I went out and bought several boxes of bullets to give this 204 thing another try. Too many people are having success and the worse that is going to happen is I am going to shoot up some bullets and powder. I fully get the more efficient 20's and would be willing to barrel to one IF somebody will tell me they feed out of a AI magazine! But you are right. The 223 Rocks and there truly is no free lunch.

I understand where you are coming from, I have burned out a couple of barrels in other calibers trying to achieve satisfactory results.
Good luck, let us know how it works out.

drover

 

[Lopili]

My dilemma has been that I currently run a 23" sporter barrelled 1:12" and had a 27 1/2" Light Palma TrueFlight 1:8" chambered to 223AI, and neither by chronograph or QL simulation was 4000fps ever possible with a 40gr unless you were running excessive pressures. The long barrel would come within 50fps of it was about the best I ever got. The lead free 35gr Nosler BT would hit that speed however.
Cheers...

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Noted. Thank you. I have plenty RL15. You guys convinced me to give it another shot. I got onto Midway and ordered a bunch more components including some 39 grain Sierras. I wonder if you would PM me your load if I promise to use all due caution not to bend my bolt....?

I'll send you a PM when I get the chance to dig into my load recipe notebook.

 

[varget204]

I will disagree. Although the 204 40 gr has a better ballistic co-efficient than the 223 40 gr it is not as significant as often thought, and it is not really that much of an issue if the user is familiar with the trajectory and drift of the 223 40 gr.

I was never able to achieve more than 3750 - 3800 fps with the 204 40 gr using load manual data, if you are getting 4000 fps you are exceeding load manual data. Interesting enough RL-15 does not publish data for the 204 using RL 15 so this must be your own recipe.

But back to the real subject - when starting the 40 gr bullet out of a 204 and 223 at equal velocity - 3750 - 3800 fps - using data from load manual they perform like this:

204 @ 600 yds / 10 mph wind - drop 60.8 inch / drift 9.7 inch

223 @ 600 yds / 10 mph wind - drop 65.2 inch / drift 10.4

A difference of 4.4 inch in drop and 0.7 inch in drift.

Yes, the 204 40 gr has a bit less drop and drift but hardly enough to be an issue to a shooter familiar with the trajectory of the 223 40 gr.

You compare a 223 w/40 grain bullet w 204 w/ the same,you Can Not get 3750-3800 fps out of a 223,the fastest loads listed are 3660-3670,the 204 is a lot flatter a 600 yards
drover

 

[varget204]

I've read comments that a 40 grain .224 bullet has a Simular B.C. compared to a .204 40 grain bullet,They are like NIGHT and DAY Apart.The BC of a .224-40 grain bullet is barely .200,a 204 40 grain bullet is .275,you CAN'T load a .223 close to a 204 ruger velocity wise,There is A Lot more drop with a .223.EASY way to check,go to Ballistic Trejectory chart enter the info,.223-40 gr-bc .200 max velocity 3675 vs 204-40gr bc .275 3700 fps [which is low] do a drop chart out to 1000 yards.There is Zero comparison.The 204 is A LOT FLATTER

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I did develop my own load with RL-15, but I have also hit 3950-4000 fps with the 39gr BK using Ramshot Exterminator and Hodgdon BLC-2. Barrel is 26" with 1 in 12" twist.

Just looked at my load data and see that I backed my load down to 3930 fps with RL-15 since it gave better accuracy.


I really dont care about the "drop" in my varmint rounds. Drop can easily be calculated and compensated with any cartridge. It's the wind drift difference I like in the 204R. When I'm on the prairie shooting in 20+ mph crosswind, the fast 20's do a much better job of bucking the wind. The less I have to hold for wind, the better my hit percentage. 20mph cross wind at 100 yards, I just hold right on the edge of the gophers body. 300 yards in the same wind, I only have to hold about 5-6". Past 300 all the shots are a pain in the ass with heavy wind no matter what speed your 20 or 22 cal bullet is going.

 

[drover]

I've read comments that a 40 grain .224 bullet has a Simular B.C. compared to a .204 40 grain bullet,They are like NIGHT and DAY Apart.The BC of a .224-40 grain bullet is barely .200,a 204 40 grain bullet is .275,you CAN'T load a .223 close to a 204 ruger velocity wise,There is A Lot more drop with a .223.EASY way to check,go to Ballistic Trejectory chart enter the info,.223-40 gr-bc .200 max velocity 3675 vs 204-40gr bc .275 3700 fps [which is low] do a drop chart out to 1000 yards.There is Zero comparison.The 204 is A LOT FLATTER

Nosler online reloading data
204 Ruger / 40 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - highest velocity listed 29.5 gr CFE @ 3815 fps

223 Rem / 40 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - highest velocity listed 28.0 gr Benchmark @ 3860 fps


Hodgdon online reloading data

204 Ruger / 40 gr V-Max - highest velocity listed 29 gr CFE 223 @ 3760 fps

223 Rem / 40 gr V-Max - highest velocity listed 28 gr Varget @ 3674 fps


Western Powder online reloading data

204 Ruger / 40 V-MAX highest velocity listed 28.0 Accurate 2520 @ 3,762 fpsG

223 Rem / 40 gr V-Max highest velocity listed 27 gr X-Teminator @ 3,803 fps

Guess no one told the publishers of these manuals that the 223 cannot attain the same velocity as the 204 - looks pretty comparable to me.

drover

 

[varget204]

I load 28 grains of varget i ,get 3785 fps,29 grains of Accurate 2520 i get 3850 fps,with Hornady 40 grain v-max,thats out of 26" barrel,A lot LESS DROP than a .223,Hodgdon has 28 grain varget a compressed load in .223 at 3674 fps w/nosler 40 grain bullet,that is fastest load listed for 40 grain .224,with a B.C. of .200 for the .224 bullet Equals A Lot more drop.i just looked at Hodgdon site w 40 v-max 29 cfe 223-3769 fps,30 blc-2-3774 fps,When one tries to shoot low B.C. bullets at 600-1000 yards the Bottom drops out from under them,I've shot Sub 1/2 moa groups at 1000 yards w/204 ruger,Sure would like to see a .223 EVEN come close.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I dont know about 1000 yards with the 204 Ruger using 40gr bullets...

The 39gr Sierra BK has a higher BC than any of the 20 cal 40gr bullets on the market. I tried shooting 1000 yards with my rifle at a 1K BR match and even with the really fast 3930 fps speed, the bullets tumbled at 1K. I shot a shorter range to see if something was wrong and maybe find out why my bullets weren't hitting a 1K IBS size target? I was consistently hitting a coffee can size rock at 800 yards on one of the berms with no issues. So I shot at the 1K target again and figured out the bullets would not maintain stability at that range. One would land on the target, then the other bullets would go God only knows where. Guy in the pits said he could hear the whizzing sound of tumbling bullets. So somewhere between 800-1000 yards, the bullets were losing all stability as they went through the transonic speed zone.

Not saying that "Varget204" didn't actually shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 1K with 40gr bullets in a 204R, but I would definitely have to see it first hand to believe that claim.

 

[Evan]

Agreed - but they both missed, it's just that the 204 missed by less.

That is the problem with long range shooting at PD's unless you have exact yardages it is extremely difficult to make hits no matter what the caliber. And if you do have exact yardages then it becomes easier because you can dial in the yardage and make hits with either caliber.

Actually it does not make any difference to me because I limit most of my shooting to 300 yards or less and rarely take a longer shot, if the target is further than that I just wait until I am closer.

But we have drifted a long ways from the original topic which was the OP getting low velocities with his 204 which can also have a great effect on trajectory.

drover

I think you'd agree that you'll hit a lot more prairie dogs if you're 3" low than 5". That's the difference between low but dead, and kicking up dirt in their face. In my experience, I've not had time to range every single dog hole before opening fire and so minor changes in range can result in misses with less flat trajectories.

If you stay at 300 or less, you really don't need much gun. I would highly recomend a 20 Vartarg for that kind of use. Way less powder and heat so you can shoot much longer, and it really defies belief how well it shoots for so little powder. WAY better than any hornet variant.

 

[Tommie]

I set up my chrono and ran some 32 grain Hornady ammo over the screens and was surprised/disappointed that the speeds were in the low 3800's

Something is very wrong.

 

[varget204]

Look on 6mm creedmoor forum, or Facebook 204 ruger shooters,put pictures on Feb 5,2019 under photos at 1000 yards,I have shot the 39 Blitz King,BC of 20 cal BK is .287 but bottom drops out at about 700-750 yards,Entered dope on 40 grain-.224 Nosler at 3700 fps ,bullet drops were @ 600 yds 71.65",@650-92.53"@700 118'64",bullet goes below speed of sound at[ 775 }yds}.The 20 cal 40 grain same velocity, @ 600 yds 59'4",@650 75.5" @700 yds 94'68" Thats 2 feet less drop,the 20 cal 40 grain bullet does not go below the speed of sound til after 950 yards,all figures were based on 70 degrees @1100 feet.at 75 degrees it's over 1000 yards.My 204's w/40 v's will shoot in the .2's moa or less at 100 yds,same w/ B.Kings.The B Kings won't hold up in 20 caliber,Think B.C of .287 Highly Overated,I shoot thousands of 204 -40 grain v-max at distance,when the temp goes up 5-10 degrees more ,my goal for this summer is shoot a 1/3 moa group at 1000,yards ,came close a bunch of times last year.Will Post Pictures when i do.If you look at 204ruger forum i posted a bunch of pictures of groups from 500 to 1000 yards from June to Nov last year.Witnessed by People in the top 10 shooters in the Missouri Steel Challenge

 

[varget204]

Something is very wrong.

I chronoed Factory 32 v-max out of Hvy 26" barreled 204,5 shot avg was 3998 fps,have heard other 204 shooters say they had simular results.It depends on the rifle,don't recall anyone saying they got the 4225 fps listed velocity

 

[B23]

Not saying that "Varget204" didn't actually shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 1K with 40gr bullets in a 204R, but I would definitely have to see it first hand to believe that claim.

As I alluded to earlier, this thread is becoming more Unicorn-esque with every post and my BS meter is pretty well pegged out now.

 

[2dogs]

Something is very wrong.

An astute observation Sir. Care to venture an opinion as to what or several what's might be wrong? Maybe I need to pull the trigger harder???