9x39 powder options and load data
- Thread starter Raccoon
- Start date
Using 27 grains of lil'gun and Berry's Superior 0.364 95 grain bullets, out of a 8.5 inch barrel. My velocity was 2050 fps, the rifle cycled and it fire formed the brass. I'm using a standard AR buffer and spring, with a pistol length gas system.
I had loaded several other grain weights but my chronograph didn't pick them up. The heaviest I had loaded was 33 grains were I started to see pressure sign.
In the picture the hole on the left is from the 95 grain bullet traveling 2050 fps and the other holes are from 270 grain bullets traveling 850 fps, at 25 yards.
I had loaded several other grain weights but my chronograph didn't pick them up. The heaviest I had loaded was 33 grains were I started to see pressure sign.
In the picture the hole on the left is from the 95 grain bullet traveling 2050 fps and the other holes are from 270 grain bullets traveling 850 fps, at 25 yards.
That's exciting news. I'm currently waiting on my order of mak projectiles to arrive.
I'm right now working with 275 grain MBC lead coated with good results. I'm working with 15.8 grains of CFE BLK at 1048 fps.
That was the thought as well. I'll have more updates later today after running a velocity test.
At 23¢/projectile it's also going to be my go to for plinking.
I look forward to updates on your load development work for 9x39! There is a real lack of data out there right now. Any loads developed for any 0.366 bullets is useful info.
Does the flat nose of the Missouri Bullet Company cast bullets cause a feeding problem in your AR? I'm interested in this bullet as a cheaper plinking round.
To minimize use of primers and bullets to fire form brass (blow the shoulder forward), I used Starline Grendel Basic brass to make 9x39 cases. Be aware that if you go this route you'll need to anneal them (I used a propane torch, drill, and 7/16 hex drive socket), and you'll need a way to trim them. Mine came out .054" over maximum 1.524" case length after sizing in the KAK Redding die. I ordered a $20 custom Lee Case Length gauge with the #12 holder (works with their $6 cutter and lock stud) and they quoted an 8 week lead time but delivered it in 5 weeks. I had it made to a "trim to" length of 1.514", so I shouldn't need to trim again for quite a while. This is about 0.003 under the average length I measured fired Tula 245 gr cases at.
Thus far I've loaded the 286 gr Interlock and 270 gr Hot Cor bullets in this brass using Lil' Gun and CCI #41 primers, but haven't had a chance to get to the range to test them yet. I also have a stash of the solid copper Barnes 286 gr TSX bullets that I got a deal on, but I'm somewhat leery about loading them without load data or GRT calculated pressures due to their overall length and how deep they would need to be seated. But there looks to be quite a bit of unused case capacity with Lil' Gun when loading the other bullets, so it could be fine. . . And as the picture in the below link shows, the Russians have loaded some ridiculously long bullets in 9x39.
Anyway, keep up the good work and keep us posted!
Actually, I've been working extensively with the load and was waiting to update until I have some 270 Gn speer hot cores in hand.
I don't have the correct magazine for 9x39 yet and working with a 6.8spc modified mag with mixed results.
The MBE projectiles do not feed reliably with the current magazine. I'm waiting for D&H to come back in stock. I'm debating on modifying the barrel extension to a trough style similar to a 350 legend or 7 62x39.
Lilgun definitely does not fill the case. I've been working mostly with CFE BLK as it fills the case nicely.
I was working up a supersonic load with the MBE projectiles. I was reaching around 95% capacity with CFE BLK around 1350fps.
The berry's 95Gn Makarov projectiles did not work out as planned. I was reaching max projectile velocity before cases were fully formed. I'm going to be ordering some FMJ Makarov projectiles. I had someone comment they had really good results and velocities over 2500fps, cases fully formed, and the action would cycle.
I have the Grendel basic brass on order. I've mostly been working with 7.62x39 brass. The quality of the Winchester bag brass was not good.
Kinda what I was afraid of on the MBC bullets. I may get some anyway. Seems like they could still be useful for fire forming brass, too, since they're relatively inexpensive (compared to the Interlocks or even the Hot Cors), and that's sort of a single feed operation anyway.
I've got 4 of the D&H 20 rd 9x39 mags. For what Brownells was asking for them that was all I was comfortable getting without knowing if they really work reliably (they do.) I also use a 20 rd Duramag 6.5 Grendel mag, which also works fine and is better when I shoot off bags on a bench since it's 1.25 inches shorter. Haven't tried using more than 10 9x39 rounds in it yet, though.
Just got back from the range. It was 60^F, 65% RH. Tried to duplicate your results with Lil' Gun and the 286 gr Hornady Interlocks loaded to 2.180 oal but came up short using CCI #41 primers in my small rifle primer Starline brass:
11.2 gr - 798 fps, s.d. 23.1 fps
11.4 gr - 791 fps, s.d. 15.0 fps
11.6 gr - 811 fps, s.d. 15.2 fps
Also tried 11.1, 11.3 and 11.5 gr loads of Lil' Gun using the 270 gr Speer Hot Cor bullets loaded to 2.185 oal with the same primers and brass and again came up short:
11.1 gr - 803 fps, s.d. 25.5 fps (only 2 valid chrono readings)
11.3 gr - 799 fps, s.d. 47.8 fps (ugly sd!)
11.5 gr - 806 fps, s.d. 9.5 fps
Apparently going from LR to SR makes a big difference. The good news is that all loads cycled and the action locked back when empty for all loads (something Tula 245 gr factory ammo has never done for me). None of the primers showed any flattening and there were no mark's on the brass, either, so it looks like I have room to safely go up some in charge weight. Hoping to get around 1050 fps from a fairly hot barrel.
Where I live (Maryland) we are only supposed to keep 5 lbs or less of smokeless powder unless we have a Fire Marshall approved storage "magazine" (no limit to how much we store in small brass cylinders sealed with lead caps, though). That plus the current availability problem means I only have a few powders on hand right now: HP38 and N340 for pistol loads, Lil' Gun for subsonic rifle loads, A1680 for 7.62x39, and A2460 for other rifle loads. I may switch to CFE BLK for 7.62x39 when the A1680 runs out.
I'm interested in Makarov bullets, too. It would be cool to have a supersonic option. What I'd really like is for KAK to restock their 125 and 140 gr 9x39 projectiles, but I've been on their "notify me" list for a long time. . .
You mentioned on another thread that you might try Accurate 1680 for 9x39. Would love to see that data if you try it since it's one of the few powders that I have right now.
Oh, in addition to using SR primers, I'm also running an 8.5 inch barrel (from Pro2A Tactical), so that may be hurting my velo some, too.
Another quick range trip today. Primary purpose was to work on teaching my daughter to shoot, but I managed to test some more 9x39 workup loads:
62F, 80% RH. Hornady 286 gr Interlock bullets, Starline brass (from "Grendel Basic"), CCI #41 Military SR primers, Lil' Gun powder, 8.5" pistol length gas AR Pistol:
11.8 gr - 842 fps, s.d. 22.1 fps
12.0 gr - 853 fps, s.d. 13.7 fps
12.2 gr - 886 fps, s.d. 28.1 fps
12.4 gr - 896 fps, s.d. 18.6 fps
12.6 gr - 920 fps, s.d. 6.2 fps
Still no pressure signs so I will continue to work up. Looks like I'm getting about 20 fps for every 0.2 gr, so 1 gr more may get me to 1020 fps; will start with 12.8 gr though.
For reference I tested 5 rounds of 245 gr Tula ammo. Average velocity was 1026 fps with a s.d. of 4.1 fps. Tula is still not cycling 100% reliably or locking the bolt back, which all of my reloads did. A quick calculation says I need to only get to 960 fps to match the Tula muzzle energy. Would be interesting to test some Wolf 9x39 ammo in my gun; maybe it will pop up on Gunbroker.
I have over 1000 rounds of Tula left. Hopefully it will perform 100% when I get a can. . .
62F, 80% RH. Hornady 286 gr Interlock bullets, Starline brass (from "Grendel Basic"), CCI #41 Military SR primers, Lil' Gun powder, 8.5" pistol length gas AR Pistol:
11.8 gr - 842 fps, s.d. 22.1 fps
12.0 gr - 853 fps, s.d. 13.7 fps
12.2 gr - 886 fps, s.d. 28.1 fps
12.4 gr - 896 fps, s.d. 18.6 fps
12.6 gr - 920 fps, s.d. 6.2 fps
Still no pressure signs so I will continue to work up. Looks like I'm getting about 20 fps for every 0.2 gr, so 1 gr more may get me to 1020 fps; will start with 12.8 gr though.
For reference I tested 5 rounds of 245 gr Tula ammo. Average velocity was 1026 fps with a s.d. of 4.1 fps. Tula is still not cycling 100% reliably or locking the bolt back, which all of my reloads did. A quick calculation says I need to only get to 960 fps to match the Tula muzzle energy. Would be interesting to test some Wolf 9x39 ammo in my gun; maybe it will pop up on Gunbroker.
I have over 1000 rounds of Tula left. Hopefully it will perform 100% when I get a can. . .
Update.
I have switched to SRP brass as I'm down to my last 100 LRP. I resized PPU 6.5 Grendel brass up. First stage was with a lee universal neck expanding die to bell the case mouths. Then ran the 9x39 tapered expanding ball through (it wouldn't size straight up from 6.5mm, I'll probably order a Sinclair expanding mandrel in 7.62) then ran a .406 Sinclair expanding mandrel to straight wall the case. Then reformed in the 9x39 die. That saves fire forming the cases and wasting components.
I also did the same with 7.62x39 brass, they have a small dip in the middle of the case due to the case taper but should function without requiring fire forming.
Let me also say that the MBC 275 Gn flat nose in fact cycle. I believe my malfunction was caused by the magazine (Finally bought a 6.5 grendel mag) and not enough crimp.
Finally, some load data.
9x39
10.5" KAK AR Platform barrel
Pistol gas system
275 Gn MBC projectiles
Federal 205 SRP
COL 2.031 +/- .004
CFE BLK
Gn of powder / FPS
15.8/962
16.2/988
16.6/1018
17.0/1075
17.4/1115
Lilgun
Gn of powder / FPS
10.6/1040
10.8/1070
11.0/1069
11.2/1072
11.4/1101
11.6/1128
12.0/1150
12.4/1162
12.8/1228
13.2/1242
13.6/1288
14.0/1310
14.4/1347
14.8/1360
15.2/1398 (no pressure signs, stopped because I reached my FPS goal)
9x39
10.5" KAK AR Platform barrel
Pistol gas system
286 Gn Hornady Interlock projectiles
Federal 205 SRP
COL 2.164 +/- .005
Lilgun
Gn of powder / FPS
11.6/1070
12.0/1118
12.4/1138
12.8/1139
13.2/1215
13.6/1219
14.0/1256
14.4/1294
14.8/1312
15.2/1345
15.3/1338
15.4/1358
15.5/1386
15.6/1363-1367-1350 (1of 3 had flat primer)
15.7/1391
15.8/1406-1392-1378-1388-1396-1364
15.9/1387
16.0/1427 (primer in good shape with minimal deformation)
I want to run some tests regarding projectile expansion. I'm hoping the interlocks will expand reliably at 1400 fps. I have read 1800 fps was the minimum. I'm really hoping the hotcores will come back in stock.
I have switched to SRP brass as I'm down to my last 100 LRP. I resized PPU 6.5 Grendel brass up. First stage was with a lee universal neck expanding die to bell the case mouths. Then ran the 9x39 tapered expanding ball through (it wouldn't size straight up from 6.5mm, I'll probably order a Sinclair expanding mandrel in 7.62) then ran a .406 Sinclair expanding mandrel to straight wall the case. Then reformed in the 9x39 die. That saves fire forming the cases and wasting components.
I also did the same with 7.62x39 brass, they have a small dip in the middle of the case due to the case taper but should function without requiring fire forming.
Let me also say that the MBC 275 Gn flat nose in fact cycle. I believe my malfunction was caused by the magazine (Finally bought a 6.5 grendel mag) and not enough crimp.
Finally, some load data.
9x39
10.5" KAK AR Platform barrel
Pistol gas system
275 Gn MBC projectiles
Federal 205 SRP
COL 2.031 +/- .004
CFE BLK
Gn of powder / FPS
15.8/962
16.2/988
16.6/1018
17.0/1075
17.4/1115
Lilgun
Gn of powder / FPS
10.6/1040
10.8/1070
11.0/1069
11.2/1072
11.4/1101
11.6/1128
12.0/1150
12.4/1162
12.8/1228
13.2/1242
13.6/1288
14.0/1310
14.4/1347
14.8/1360
15.2/1398 (no pressure signs, stopped because I reached my FPS goal)
9x39
10.5" KAK AR Platform barrel
Pistol gas system
286 Gn Hornady Interlock projectiles
Federal 205 SRP
COL 2.164 +/- .005
Lilgun
Gn of powder / FPS
11.6/1070
12.0/1118
12.4/1138
12.8/1139
13.2/1215
13.6/1219
14.0/1256
14.4/1294
14.8/1312
15.2/1345
15.3/1338
15.4/1358
15.5/1386
15.6/1363-1367-1350 (1of 3 had flat primer)
15.7/1391
15.8/1406-1392-1378-1388-1396-1364
15.9/1387
16.0/1427 (primer in good shape with minimal deformation)
I want to run some tests regarding projectile expansion. I'm hoping the interlocks will expand reliably at 1400 fps. I have read 1800 fps was the minimum. I'm really hoping the hotcores will come back in stock.
Sure,
5.56, 350 legend, 7.62x39, 9x39
444 marlin would be fun. I might need to look into that.
Correct, 350 legend. After I get a good workup with 9x39, I'll be working with 350 legend.
So far, they seem to be able to ring gongs at 50 yards with little effort. I believe I've worked out function issues, brass forming without fire forming, and usable powders. I've moved from 7.62x39 brass to 6.5 Grendel brass as I have more SRP than LRP.
The next batch I make I'll be focusing on accuracy. I'm currently working with 275 gn MBC Hi-Tek coated lead projectiles.
I have a 1050 fps load and 1400 fps load worked up that I'll be testing accuracy.
That's exactly the plan. For my area, the furthest shot I would be taking would be 100 yards. Most would be well within 50 yards.
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