9mm Lead bullets coming out of brass.

[josh.rizzo]

I've been reloading 9mm Luger for a while and decided to try some Laser-Cast lead bullets (115gr). These are supposed to be a bit harder than normal lead and they come pre-lubbed. On two separate occasions I have had the bullet come out of the brass when the bullet was fed from the magazine, causing the round to jam (gun would not go into battery). Upon ejecting the round I got an empty/undamaged case, a bullet just barely stuck in the rifling, and unburnt powder all over the inside of my gun (no primer strike since the gun wasn't even in battery).

I've been loading them the same load and method as my 115gr jacketed bullets.

1) resize
2) expand case mouth
3) charge
4) seat

Notice no crimp as I have not found it necessary and generally don't use cannelured bullets. My load is a pretty full case charge , but it should not be compressed or anything. I have not had any problems with my jacketed bullets; just the new lead ones.

What could be causing this dislodging of the bullet? Do the lubed lead bullets just not seat as tightly, perhaps requiring a crimp? Or is there something else I'm doing wrong with lead bullets?

 

[bigedp51]

You need to taper crimp your bullets, regardless if they are jacketed or lead, or in a gunfight you are dead.

Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die 9mm Luger

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/557190/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die-9mm-luger

 

[missed]

by not crimping them you are not doing anything to counter what you did when you expanded the mouths.

Gotta crimp them.

 

[josh.rizzo]

Huh...I guess I just got away with it for a long time without crimps. I'll do that from now on.

 

[fredhorace77]

"big" where do you find these wonderful illustration pics you often post?...you always have some of the neatest photos that show descriptions that are sometimes often hard to put into words

 

[Jdne5b]

If they're sticking in the rifling, they are probably too long. Some of the round nose lead bullets have a less than ideal profile which makes them need to be loaded very short to not stick in the rifling.

Missouri Bullets had this issue for me. Even after throating my barrels, they still stuck and had to be loaded under most published OAL's. I got fed up and switched profiles. Never had a problem since.

I only crimp enough to remove the bell.

 

[josh.rizzo]

If they're sticking in the rifling, they are probably too long. Some of the round nose lead bullets have a less than ideal profile which makes them need to be loaded very short to not stick in the rifling.

Missouri Bullets had this issue for me. Even after throating my barrels, they still stuck and had to be loaded under most published OAL's. I got fed up and switched profiles. Never had a problem since.

I only crimp enough to remove the bell.

Good point. Fairly sure thats not the problem because I load them a bit short anyways, but ill check when I get home.

 

[Jdne5b]

If the bullet is lose in the case, then you would more than likely suffer "set-back" and not bullet jump (which is actually common in revolvers, not autos) when fed from the magazine and hitting the feed ramp. Set-back causes a pressure spike, and maybe a kaboom.

If the gun wouldnt go into battery, then the bullets are too long.

Cycle a mag of rounds through the gun manually and see if there are rifling marks on any of the bullets.

Also measure your loaded rounds at the case mouth. If it is more than (brass thickness X 2) + the bullet diameter, then you do need more crimp, but is more than likely not causing your issue.

 

[josh.rizzo]

If the bullet is lose in the case, then you would more than likely suffer "set-back" and not bullet jump (which is actually common in revolvers, not autos) when fed from the magazine and hitting the feed ramp. Set-back causes a pressure spike, and maybe a kaboom.

If the gun wouldnt go into battery, then the bullets are too long.

Cycle a mag of rounds through the gun manually and see if there are rifling marks on any of the bullets.

Also measure your loaded rounds at the case mouth. If it is more than (brass thickness X 2) + the bullet diameter, then you do need more crimp, but is more than likely not causing your issue.

99% of them cycle fine, just 1/100 will have this issue where the bullet is dislodged. I'm not doing any dramatic case mouth expansion and I don't crimp at the moment, so I wonder if there is just more tension at the base of the bullet than at the mouth, and thats enough to push the softer lead bullets out on occasion. I am also using an undersized sizing die for my match barrel, so that could also contribute to more tension at the base. I'll measure the width when I get home.

 

[jonbearman]

I used to roll crimp ,but I found with my 1911's and smith's in 9mm that profile crimping works way better.The bullets should be seated off the rifling's. I would crimp them fairly stiff if you want complete ignition.You should seat the bullet right down to the top of the groove's.Not crimping is asking for a disaster.

 

[finnaddict]

Crimp, crimp and crimp.

 

[bigedp51]

"big" where do you find these wonderful illustration pics you often post?...you always have some of the neatest photos that show descriptions that are sometimes often hard to put into words

Google the subject and then click on "images", any posted or published image on the subject will appear, then save as and upload to photo bucket.

I have two dyslexic typing fingers that only know the Columbus method of typing.............discover the key and land on it. :-[ The photos and illustrations are far more understandable than my typing.

Also when you "see" an image it is "imprinted" in your brain and is much easier to grasp than the written word.

And now the written word..........Depending on the type bullet you need to compress and taper crimp the case mouth .002 to .004. Plated lead bullets require the least amount of taper crimp and test using the push on the bullet method.

Squeeze Play: How to Properly Crimp Ammunition
by Patrick Sweeney | December 17th, 2012
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/12/17/squeeze-play-how-to-properly-crimp-ammunition/

NOTE: The RCBS AR series dies have a seating die that uses a taper crimp for the AR15 and other semi auto rifles. The taper crimp is the least deforming of the two crimping methods and easier on the case mouth.

 

[jlow]

A word of warning about crimping lead bullets (vs. FMJ). Do not over crimp them with a taper crimp…

If you over crimp a lead bullet, you will find the bullet loose in the jacket. This sounds counter intuitive but the reason is the case is brass and the bullet is lead. If you over crimp, you will find the brass case will spring back but the bullets will not, leading to a loose bullet again in the case. This has happened to more people than you can count.

 

[stool]

ROLL CRIMP FOR REVOLVERS and TAPER CRIMP FOR SEMI AUTO .....

I used to roll crimp ,but I found with my 1911's and smith's in 9mm that profile crimping works way better.The bullets should be seated off the rifling's. I would crimp them fairly stiff if you want complete ignition.You should seat the bullet right down to the top of the groove's.Not crimping is asking for a disaster.

 

[stool]

THIS IS NOT TRUE of crimping, but is possible with lee fl crimp sizer,,,,,
it is possible to resize the cast bullet IN THE CASE.....NOT GOOD IF YOU HAVE A REASON TO BE SHOOTING A LARGER THAN "STD" DIA BULLET///which does occur in the cast bullet world.

A word of warning about crimping lead bullets (vs. FMJ). Do not over crimp them with a taper crimp…

If you over crimp a lead bullet, you will find the bullet loose in the jacket. This sounds counter intuitive but the reason is the case is brass and the bullet is lead. If you over crimp, you will find the brass case will spring back but the bullets will not, leading to a loose bullet again in the case. This has happened to more people than you can count.

 

[stool]

my two top guesses...
you are belling the case way too much.
(no crimp which we know,)
and an oal which allows the bullet to stick in the throat...

with both a proper sized and belled case, and a proper dia bullet in a 45acp/9mm or 40 s&w, one typically only need to remove the bell with the crimp die...maybe 1/2 thou under(0.0005).

lots of no-no's

 

[jlow]

THIS IS NOT TRUE of crimping, but is possible with lee fl crimp sizer,,,,,
it is possible to resize the cast bullet IN THE CASE.....NOT GOOD IF YOU HAVE A REASON TO BE SHOOTING A LARGER THAN "STD" DIA BULLET///which does occur in the cast bullet world.

A word of warning about crimping lead bullets (vs. FMJ). Do not over crimp them with a taper crimp…

If you over crimp a lead bullet, you will find the bullet loose in the jacket. This sounds counter intuitive but the reason is the case is brass and the bullet is lead. If you over crimp, you will find the brass case will spring back but the bullets will not, leading to a loose bullet again in the case. This has happened to more people than you can count.

Stool – not sure I understand what you are saying? Yes, I indeed meant the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is a taper crimp die.

 

[Jdne5b]

THIS IS NOT TRUE of crimping, but is possible with lee fl crimp sizer,,,,,
it is possible to resize the cast bullet IN THE CASE.....NOT GOOD IF YOU HAVE A REASON TO BE SHOOTING A LARGER THAN "STD" DIA BULLET///which does occur in the cast bullet world.

A word of warning about crimping lead bullets (vs. FMJ). Do not over crimp them with a taper crimp…

If you over crimp a lead bullet, you will find the bullet loose in the jacket. This sounds counter intuitive but the reason is the case is brass and the bullet is lead. If you over crimp, you will find the brass case will spring back but the bullets will not, leading to a loose bullet again in the case. This has happened to more people than you can count.

Stool – not sure I understand what you are saying? Yes, I indeed meant the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is a taper crimp die.

Yes, and the FCD undersizes bullets. In 9mm, the standard is .355, and lead is usually .356 or .357. Using the FCD sizes down those bullets, resulting in excess leading and lack of accuracy. If you set the crimp too tight, it will bell out the middle of the case. This doesnt appear to be the OP's issue, but it happens.

 

[Jdne5b]

If the bullet is lose in the case, then you would more than likely suffer "set-back" and not bullet jump (which is actually common in revolvers, not autos) when fed from the magazine and hitting the feed ramp. Set-back causes a pressure spike, and maybe a kaboom.

If the gun wouldnt go into battery, then the bullets are too long.

Cycle a mag of rounds through the gun manually and see if there are rifling marks on any of the bullets.

Also measure your loaded rounds at the case mouth. If it is more than (brass thickness X 2) + the bullet diameter, then you do need more crimp, but is more than likely not causing your issue.

99% of them cycle fine, just 1/100 will have this issue where the bullet is dislodged. I'm not doing any dramatic case mouth expansion and I don't crimp at the moment, so I wonder if there is just more tension at the base of the bullet than at the mouth, and thats enough to push the softer lead bullets out on occasion. I am also using an undersized sizing die for my match barrel, so that could also contribute to more tension at the base. I'll measure the width when I get home.

The undersize die is a good die, I use one. It wont make the bullet squeeze out the top of the case though.

It can also make ammo that does this at 50 yards.

 

[stool]

BUT ALSO FULL LENGTH SIZES THE LOADED CASE..squeezing the bullet to some size other than which we started with...not a good thing.

THIS IS NOT TRUE of crimping, but is possible with lee fl crimp sizer,,,,,
it is possible to resize the cast bullet IN THE CASE.....NOT GOOD IF YOU HAVE A REASON TO BE SHOOTING A LARGER THAN "STD" DIA BULLET///which does occur in the cast bullet world.

A word of warning about crimping lead bullets (vs. FMJ). Do not over crimp them with a taper crimp…

If you over crimp a lead bullet, you will find the bullet loose in the jacket. This sounds counter intuitive but the reason is the case is brass and the bullet is lead. If you over crimp, you will find the brass case will spring back but the bullets will not, leading to a loose bullet again in the case. This has happened to more people than you can count.

Stool – not sure I understand what you are saying? Yes, I indeed meant the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die which is a taper crimp die.