88 ELDs and .223 load combos
- Thread starter GregC
- Start date
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
To add to Jdne5B's post, "Or accept the lower velocity".
The Hornady 88 ELDM requires a LOT of freebore to load optimally. Regardless of what you might hear, it requires even more freebore than Berger/Sierra 90 gr bullets. It will require WAY, WAY, WAY more freebore than an 80.5 Fullbore bullet, like somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.100" to 0.125" more freebore than you can typically get away with using the 80.5s. Were I going to have a rifle designed to shoot the 88s [or Sierra 95s] from the ground up, I would probably go with 0.250" as the minimum freebore. Compare that to the 0.169" freebore commonly used with the Berger/Sierra 90s. So what you're experiencing is a noticeable loss of effective case volume due to the bullet shank seated so far down in the case neck.
Aside from throating out the rifle freebore more appropriately, possible solutions include using a powder with a similar burn rate, but much finer kernels than Varget, a very long drop tube, some type of vibratory approach to settle the powder better in the cases, or making do with the velocity attainable with whatever amount of Varget you can get into the case without overly compressing it.
The Hornady 88 ELDM requires a LOT of freebore to load optimally. Regardless of what you might hear, it requires even more freebore than Berger/Sierra 90 gr bullets. It will require WAY, WAY, WAY more freebore than an 80.5 Fullbore bullet, like somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.100" to 0.125" more freebore than you can typically get away with using the 80.5s. Were I going to have a rifle designed to shoot the 88s [or Sierra 95s] from the ground up, I would probably go with 0.250" as the minimum freebore. Compare that to the 0.169" freebore commonly used with the Berger/Sierra 90s. So what you're experiencing is a noticeable loss of effective case volume due to the bullet shank seated so far down in the case neck.
Aside from throating out the rifle freebore more appropriately, possible solutions include using a powder with a similar burn rate, but much finer kernels than Varget, a very long drop tube, some type of vibratory approach to settle the powder better in the cases, or making do with the velocity attainable with whatever amount of Varget you can get into the case without overly compressing it.
I've been running the 88s out of a 223 Wylde chamber for awhile. I was running h4895 and it's a great powder if you are running quality brass but I've recently switched to PP2000mr. From my 26" barrel the 88s seem to like shooting around 2850fps or slightly less. For h4895 that's the boarder line of ruining cases in 2-3 shots. For 2000mr I was able to shoot .7grs more than my 2840ish load before I hit any obvious pressure signs. If you are in an area with big temp swings then 2000mr might not be the powder because it can be temp sensitive although I'm not sure on how bad.
linebaugh
Silver $$ Contributor
Great pic. Thanks.
no shortcuts in this game is there? looks like I just need to rethroat for 88s and call it good.
shot a 599.36x and best target ever (200.16x) with a .223 at 300yds this past Saturday with lapua brass, 24.8 varget and 88s.... even beat a 6BR and BRA in 5 to 8mph swirling wind.....so I have been won over.
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Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
What velocity are you able to get?
don't own a chronograph lol....just tune to the group on paper, not concerned about MV but guess I need to get one
5 to 8mph wind all over the place, shooting in the North Carolina foothills, with only a ribbon for a wind flag. seating the bullets on a RCBS cheapazz die tooDang, man... nice target!
What happened on those two fliers hi/lo?
Down South
FTR Junkie
Impossible, ELD-M doesn't shoot that well......lol.....Just kidding, good shooting sir.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
A few months ago you switched from 308 to 223 and already shot best score! Last Oct I changed barrels so I could switch from 80.5 to 90vld. Based on that single observation I would say the 80.5 is more accurate than the 90, which doesn't offer any benefit until 500-600 yd. Much better at Butner this year! Try Cfe223 for wider node, less fill, lower pressure,.higher velocity. I will give you some if you want to give it a try.
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Bumping this because I shot my first workups with the 88s recently. For reference, I have a short(ish) freebore of .090. The "Accept lower velocity" option is a legitimate one IMO. I'm running the 88s at a pretty short 1.94" CBTO.
Found what appears to be a half MOA load with 26.2gr of PP2k and I have case capacity to spare at 2750fps. No, it's not the 2850-2900 some guys are running from the 30" tubes and hot loads with 90s. But you are having good mechanical accuracy, then giving up 2750fps isn't that big of a disadvantage. I'm shooting that load in a midrange match this weekend, so I'll have some real capability data soon.
The "ideal" seating is whatever the rifle likes. And if that means you have the bullet down below the bottom of the neck, so be it.
Shows the amount difference a barrel and brass makes. I'm getting 2850s with 26.3grs of pp2000mr with a 26" barrel and nammo brass.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I don't necessarily agree with this statement, shooting context is important. The "ideal" seating depth is one that is sufficiently far out in the neck that it allows you to take full advantage of the available case volume and get the most out of whatever the intrinsic BC of your bullet choice happens to be. Anyone can load up rounds at a reduced charge weight and lower velocity and obtain decent precision. However, if you're giving up a significant amount of performance or diminishing brass life markedly because the bullet is sunk way below the neck/shoulder, I can pretty much guarantee you that some of your competitors won't be doing the same thing, and will have sufficient freebore in their rifle to seat the bullets they're using optimally. In F-TR, the .223 Rem is already at a disadvantage to shooters using a .308 with 200+ gr high BC bullets. There is no good reason to give them any further advantage if you happen to shoot a .223 Rem by using a bullet that is too long for the specific rifle chambering.
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You have my attention, Ned.
You are correct that shooting context is important, so let me share with you some additional info. This is a jack-of-all-trades .223 with a 26" tube. I shoot an F face in a club division called F-practical (harris bipod and rear squeeze bags only, no mechanical rests or joypods)-think of it as a PRS rifles shooting F class faces. Other than that, I might shoot it in Any/Any slung as it is legal in several classes and also a reasonable offhand rifle (XTC). This is not a dedicated FTR gun and I do not compete in FTR nor have the expectation of competing with an FTR rifle purpose built for that purpose. My rifle is nearly 5# below the FTR weight limit. My last match, I didn't have this bolt gun build done, so I shot this division for the first time with my 18" AR15 with 15x optic and handloads. The 193 at 500 was not only the highest 500y score in my division, but the 3rd highest of any shooting F-faces. My little 18" AR outshot several F-open rifles. I was experimenting with different loads and only Agg'd 566, but this not only won the F-prac division (against 6.5 creedmoors and .308s), but was only 9 points below the FTR winner. Nine points behind a dedicate FTR gun (and division champ) with a production 18" AR, untested loads, and a 15x optic is in my view surprisingly competitive. And I derive great satisfaction achieving respectable results from lesser gear.
So now my jack of all trades rifle is built. And I intend to give the FTR guns a run for their money with a lighter weight rifle, a field bipod and no bunny bag. I don't have any plans to travel to Nationals and am content to shoot club matches. And if I can post respectable scores on F-faces with a little .223 and no $1500 rest or other goodies, that's a successful outing for me.
That's the relevant context.
So, if one puts aside case capacity, what is the theoretical advantage of the "ideal" seating depth of having the boattail/bearing junction above the neck/shoulder junction? With my particular brass and powder, I can hit 2750 with case capacity to spare at a good accuracy node in a 26" bbl. It seems to me that the case capacity is only relevant if it's limiting your ability to hit a reasonable speed with good accuracy.
I've tested up to 27.0 with acceptable pressure. I could likely go 27.3 or so and easily hit 2850 or more at my current short OAL. But if it's less accurate, it seems pointless to me. In my rifle, the 88s like a jump of about .050".
Accuracy> speed.
It seems to me that the "ideal" seating is only consequential when you need the extra capacity to hit a higher accuracy node in a given barrel because the lower nodes are far too slow to be competitive.
A ballistic calculator will indicate similar windage for an 88 at 2750 as you'd get with an 80 at ~2900 or a 75 at ~3100. I have been testing 80s, but seem to be very close to pressure around 2900.
I'll need to test my 80s more to see if I can push them fast enough to offset the BC penalty relative to 88s at even 2750. With another powder, I might be able to hit 2950 or so with the 80s.
Anyway, I'm willing to hear someone out and hear their best argument, but I will do things as I see fit. Actual results trump theoretical problems every time.
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