6x45 for xc

[KevinThomas]

Yep. Ditto for the offhand stage at 200 yards; all single loaded. The only time in High Power that you're dealing with loaded mags is on the rapids. On any of the slowfires or sustained fires, it's one round at a time, single loaded into the mags. At Perry, the first time you get a boat in the impact area, it'll become painfully obvious why.

As for the Berger 75 VLD, I'm going to say no, based on the dimensions given in Bryan's book. There, he shows the head to be .570" in length, which would put part of the ogive seating below the case mouth with an OAL of 2.250". Looks like their 77 grain BT will fit just fine, though.

 

[mao0720]

Thanks for the info, still new the high power stuff, been shooting practical long range and tactical carbine for a few years now.
"Boat in the impact area"? What do you mean?

 

[Rtheurer]

If you have ever been to Camp Perry for the nationals you know that call over the intercom very well... "Cease fire Cease fire, Make the line safe, Boat in the impact area"

Lake Erie is the impact area for Camp Perry. Dispite Marked warnings and restricted acess some people just dont get it, with there bass boats and other water craft.

RT

 

[rcw3]

Thanks Robert... I was hoping you would hop in. I have no experience with the HAGAR and was hoping some one would help out on that part of the post. Can you give the OP a little info on the new 95gr Hunting Hybrid Classic in the HAGAR at Mag length as well.

RussT

Russ

The 6mm HAGAR is a rather long case (max chamber = 1.785", max case = 1.775", trim to length = 1.765"). One of the problems is finding good mag feed bullets that keep a full bearing surface at the mouth of the case when loaded at magazine length (for me that means 2.280" or less with the PRI 6.8 SPC magazines since I like to leave a little margin for error). The Berger 95gr Classic Hybrid Hunting bullet is one of the few magazine feed appropriate bullets that works well in the 6mm HAGAR application. It has a .427 G1 BC which is not bad at all. The nose length of the bullet is .505", which means if you take .505" + 1.775" = 2.275" (which is a good mag length for the HAGAR using the PRI 6.8 SPC magazines). When you load it a magazine length you have a good bit of bullet back in the case (akin to the Sierra 77's in at .223 case at magazine length), but those bullets also jump real well (even a long jump like there is in that application).

For me the best lineup of XTC bullets with the 6mm HAGAR is the Berger 95 Classic Hunting Hybrids for 200 and 300 yards and the Berger 105 gr. Hybrid bullet loaded long at 600 yards. You can substitute the Berger 80 gr bullets at 200 yards but to keep full bearing surface at the mouth of the case for magazine feed, you need to run the modified magazines (part of the front of the magazine cut out which allows them to be loaded around 2.340" OAL). The 80's have a nose length of .567", so with the formula of .567" + 1.775" = 2.342" (which is a good mag length with the modified magazines).

Let me say that I won't recommend any combination of mag feed loadings that would not meet having at least a SAAMI type situation (i.e. minimum bullet bearing diameter at the mouth of the case) because I feel that is potentially unsafe and I am not going there. If you look at a lot of SAAMI diagrams for 6mm's, you see the max bearing diameter of .2435" with a minus tolerance of .003", so for me, if you load it magazine length, and measure the bullet diameter at the mouth of the case, it better hit .2405" or it's a "no go" for me.

An example of a situation I consider unsafe (but yet I know people do it) is loading the Berger 90 gr BT bullets magazine length in unmodified magazines (i.e. 2.280"). The nose length on them is .623", so with the formula you have .623" + 1.775" = 2.398", which means if you load them at 2.280" OAL, there is .118" of the nose of the bullet down below the mouth of the case and there is very little of the bearing surface of the bullet supported by the neck brass which in a semi auto AR-15 is not an ideal situation (personally I feel it's a potential accident waiting to happen, and I would never sanction or recommend it, although I know people do it). I don't recommend that with modified magazines either since with that combination you still have .058" of the nose of the bullet down in the neck of the case.

The good news is there are some workable magazine feed bullets for the 6mm HAGAR (in addition to the Berger 95 gr Classic Hybrid Hunting/Match bullet) that do not need modified magazines to meet minimum bullet diameter at the mouth of the case when loaded. Some others are the Sierra 85 gr GameKing, the Hornady 87 gr. BTHP, the Hornady 75 gr. V-Max, and the Sierra 70 gr MatchKing. If you run with modified magazines where you can load at 2.340" OAL, you pick up a lot more bullets like the Nosler 70, 80, 90 & 95 gr ballistic tip bullets (all of these shoot very very well) the Hornady 87 gr V-Max bullet, and a number of other bullets.

Long post but I hope this helps.

Robert Whitley

 

[Rtheurer]

MAo

I can tell you havnt shot a match yet by how you describe the yard line in Meters vs Yards. To be completly honost with you.. Your not going to be undergunned with the good ole 223 in any of the NRA XTC rifle matches. There is way to many pluses in that .223 configuration vs the 6mm to warrent it starting out. For example... In 2011 I shot a 223 match rifle for the first time, built by Scott Medesha and some how placed in 22nd place at the National Championships. There where a whole bunch of 6mm this and 6.5mm that behind me. If you want to do something just a little difrent I get that... But you could shoot out one barrel in 223 and then do the change.
Just my 2 cents on the issue and some friendly shooter to shooter advice. Its worth about as much as it cost you to read it. Ha !!!.

Have you checked out the National match forum? Its a little more oriented to your questions and you wont get a varmint hunter telling you about his wild cat case for shooting varmints.

Welcome to the game. If you have any questions on matches or equipment or rules or anything the like, Im willing to help out best I can.
RussT

 

[mao0720]

RussT
Thanks for all te help, you're definitely swaying me back towards a .223. It would definatly be cost effective, since I'm already setup to reload for 223. I've always liked the idea of the 6mm AR or 6.5 grendel, but for paper where I'm not concerned about energy on target, it doesn't sound like I'll be giving up much to stick with the 223. Yeah, for practical Long range stuff I always shoot my ranges in meters, the mill dot math is just so much easier that way. again thanks for the help and info.

 

[Erud]

I shoot rcw3's 6mm Turbo 40 and I love it. That being said, I would definitely recommend any new shooter start with a .223 for 2 primary reasons:

The first reason is the cost. Nothing about the 6mm variants is cheap. If you decide you don't love the sport as much as you expect to, you will be out a lot more money. You've already got the gear to load .223 and components, barrels, etc are (relatively) cheap. Secondly, you are not likely to be able to see a benefit to the additional performance from a 6mm cartridge until you have been shooting for a few years. I think that until you are shooting in the higher-end of the Master class, there will be a lot of other reasons for shooting 9's(or worse) before the performance of your cartridge comes into play. Clean 200's at 600 yards with the .223 don't happen all the time, but good shooters do make them happen.

Have you considered starting out shooting a Service Rifle? It's a great way to get started in the sport and puts you on a pretty level playing field, equipment-wise. Chase the Distinguished Rifleman badge for a few years while you figure out what you like and don't like about the rifle, and what you'd like to change on your next one. The space guns are great, but can be somewhat overwhelming for a new shooter. Without a baseline to build on, it can be tough to tell if all the adjustments are making things better or worse....


Good luck and Merry Christmas,
Erik

 

[mao0720]

I have considered service rifle. I've spent so much time behind an M16 in the Army as well as my own various AR's, that Im sure id rather shoot match rifle.

 

[Rtheurer]

MOA

Ahhhh Good ole Ft Lewis.... Im trying to think of any Highpower 600 yard ranges in your area. Have you tried to go to a match and meet some of the other shooters. They will most likely be happy to have you. If you dont have all your equipment yet If it was me I would barrow you some no questions asked, like almost every Highpower shooter I know.
Ask around at a club that shoots Highpower and there may be equipment for sale as well so its important to get out and see a match. Im guessing a trip to Camp Perry might be a ways down the road, since the drive time is so darn far for you.
Again if you have any questions please ask. Be happy to help out in any way possable.

RussT

 

[mao0720]

My club does reduced distance high power in the winter and full distance high power in The summer. I'm going to go to the reduced distance match in January and check it out. Might shoot my m1a at the match. Speaking of which, is an m1a with a globe front sight legal in match rifle? I put a globe sight on it last year and love it. I'm fully aware that it is not an ideal rifle for the task, but, until I get my match rifle AR built I could use my m1a and get some trigger time in a match setting.

 

[Erud]

Your M1A will be just fine. There are very few limitations in the "Match Rifle"category and generally-speaking, at a club-level match no one would care or hassle you even if your rifle doesn't fit the category as long as it is safe and not disruptive(muzzle brake, etc). Every club that I know of is happy to see new shooters turn up no matter what they brought along to shoot, so shoot what ya got! Any match practice will be beneficial as you will not only start to learn the shooting part, but also how the match is run, what else you need to do, etc.

Also, lots of clubs have rifles available to loan and many HP shooters have spare rifles and gear, as Russ mentioned above. If you wanted to shoot an AR I'm sure somebody would be happy to let you use one.

Good luck and Merry Christmas!

Erik