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6PPC Woes!!

Belton45

Silver $$ Contributor
So went out a few weeks back went out and had a great shooting weekend with some groups in the lower 1's. So today I load same charge and same seating depth and mid 2's and 3's. URGHH!!! Today was about 30 degrees warmer than the first time I shot. Is this why people load at the range? Was I missing the node?
 
Belton45 said:
So went out a few weeks back went out and had a great shooting weekend with some groups in the lower 1's. So today I load same charge and same seating depth and mid 2's and 3's. URGHH!!! Today was about 30 degrees warmer than the first time I shot. Is this why people load at the range? Was I missing the node?

Welcome to the 6PPC! At the Nationals in Midland we saw 25 degree changes in temperature. The day before I got there, Billy Stevens told me he started at 29.8 grains of N-133 in the morning and by the afternoon was down to 28.6, and still searching for THE load. The temperature was moving from 70 to 95 throughout the day. And yes, that's why folks load at the range. Some days, the node is a moving target.
 
Looking at a You Tube video of Tony Boyer shooting a match, I was interested to see that evidently he had brought more than one load to the bench, for that match. It looked to me like he shot some of one on the sighter, looked the group over, and based on the shape of the group, selected what he would use for his record target, moving them up to the ammo holder that was suspended near his loading port. Shortly after that, he changed his mind and quickly changed to another load. The point of the story is that if the fellow who will never be caught in Hall of Fame points, doesn't know which load will be best, for a given match, until he does some testing during the match, what chance do yo have of getting it right for the entire weekend loading at home. If I had to load at home, I would shoot a .30 BR. I think that their tune is much more broad. I know more than one new shooter who has put off loading at the range. I think that they are making way too big a deal out of it.
 
I have almost everything for reloading at range. I tried it for the first time last weekend and my beam scale was all over the place so thinking of how I will fix that (due to wind). Cant decide if I want to go digital or not. That is the only thing holding me back rite now. Thanks for the input. I am slowly getting a better understanding as time goes by.
 
I have had two 6ppc's say like ten years ago. I was a pre loader, load up at home a few different charges to see what would shoot the best go out shoot a few groups, say low .200's. go back home and load up say 20 of what shot the best and go back out and shoot mid .400 to .5..I struggled with them,I even had stuff to load at the range, had a Wilson die set up,arbor press and Harrell's thrower. (i still have them) but i got sticky cases just using the neck die only, I got pissed off and sold them both..The whole time i messed with them over a two year period i had three 22ppc's and a 6BR. And the 6BR just allways shot .250 or below very consistant, and even have been able to tune it at the range and get in the mid .100's so i been shooting the 6BR for the last ten years and it has allways satisfied me that maybe that's the best i can shoot..But i know alot more now days and I'm ready to build another 6ppc. also i have had a rifle you could take to the range and shoot group after group in the mid .100's like it was child's play. even you could see a pick up and you jerked the trigger,surely that was out of the group and it wasn't. then next weekend go out with that same rifle and shoot .350's and .450's and say wow something must have broke.so my buddy said let me shoot five and he shot a small round .200 .hum. some reason i just could not shoot that day..so i don't real excited anymore if i have a bad day shooting, either load is just off or I'm off. i just don't get to worked up about it but at one time i would be out there every day daylight to dark.
 
Belton45 said:
I have almost everything for reloading at range. I tried it for the first time last weekend and my beam scale was all over the place so thinking of how I will fix that (due to wind). Cant decide if I want to go digital or not. That is the only thing holding me back rite now. Thanks for the input. I am slowly getting a better understanding as time goes by.

I really dont know what some guy's are useing now days but i bought a harrell's custom 90 powder measure
I have had it for over ten years and i cant tell you how many thousand of rounds it has loaded but i can reccomend it completely, I have allways wanted to update to the higher priced one but it just works and if you go slow and easy with it you will get very consistant charges.
 
Your beam scale is too slow to use between matches. I have a scale wind box that I have posted pictures of. It has the trickler inside with the scale, but with its handle sticking through a closely fitted hole in the end of the box. I throw my charges, when loading at the range. With 133 it takes skill and practice, and THE RIGHT TECHNIQUE to hold the smallest variance of charge weights with this powder, which is why I started friends with H322. They have shot groups in the 1s, and it is not as twitchy to measure. I have friends who have electronic scales that measure to .02 gr. I have done them a few favors, and their scales have come to visit me for a week or more at a time. Lots of trial and error found what works, and practice helps keep it consistent. It is a skill. Knowing how the piano is played is not the same as doing well at a recital. Practice...with a good scale.
 
Belton45 said:
I have almost everything for reloading at range. I tried it for the first time last weekend and my beam scale was all over the place so thinking of how I will fix that (due to wind). Cant decide if I want to go digital or not. That is the only thing holding me back rite now. Thanks for the input. I am slowly getting a better understanding as time goes by.

Here's another school of thought by a BR Hall of Fame inductee:

Should You Bench Load ?

The majority of top 6PPC competitors load ammo on match day, playing with load weights to suit the charge to temperature and humidity. While this allows you to get peak velocity on a cool day, and avoid over-charges in very hot conditions, "bench loading is a huge distraction", and isn't essential.

Hall of Famer Jim Borden: "I have my ammunition already loaded for [major matches]. It's working, both rifles are Agging in the 'low Ones', with a load of about 29.0gr N133, running about 3300 fps."

"Loading to conditions on match day can kill you. All you can do is go by memory and guess-timates. If your rifle has good vibration control, you'll typically have an accuracy window of 100-125 fps."

"I set preloads for velocity in the middle of the accuracy window which lets me shoot in any conditions. Studies by Jack Jackson convinced me we could let ammo sit for as long as a year and accuracy will hold."
 
No disrespect to Jim, but loading to conditions between matches is exactly how 99% of short range benchrest group matches are won. Next time you see him, why don't you ask him what percentage of competition rifles have "good vibration control". I believe that he has put in a lot of time on this particular detail of rifle/stock construction, and that he is right about its importance.
 
Just a hypothetical question here. If I was to shoot today at 78 degrees and 62% humidity and 2 months from now had the same temp and humidity would the same load shoot the same given everything the same with gun? Thanks again for all input.
 
The only fly in the ointment is the condition of the powder. If the powder was unchanged, by exposure to humidity, or lack thereof, the load should work. I keep notes, and load at the range. Often, I go to my notes for similar conditions, and the results are usually good.
 
Boyd, you say you go to your notes. What exactly do you record?

I would say without notes or a damn good memory of what shot best under a certain set of conditions, reloading at the range won't do you any good. Without that information, how would you know what to do.

I gather as temps go up, powder charge will go down. Are you looking for a certain velocity by changing powder charge? Or is it about harmonics?
 
The target tells me what the rifle likes. I have a spiral bound "book" of 3.5 x 5 cards, that are perforated, but not so you have to be careful about accidentally tearing them out. When I am loading at the range, I start a new entry with the day date and time. Although I don not record every single detail of every trial load, I note which rifle, and barrel, what bullet, what powder and if it applies, lot, Seating depths are recorded as the combined length of the stem and cap of my Neilson seater. Powder by measure setting, also noting throwing technique used, since that has changed over time and different techniques yield different weights of powder. When I find a good load I note the temp., humidity, seating depth, and charge by measure setting. I also will note wind conditions and how good the groups looked.


Some time back, I helped a friend fine tune a load for his PPC. Not being a benchrest shooter he arbitrarily changed the load, and lost track of what was needed to make the rifle shoot. We had noted the load by seating depth, charge weight (saved one for him to take apart and weigh when he got home) temperature and humidity. Some time later he told me that he was not getting the accuracy that I had tuned it to, and discussed the changes that he had made, we took another trip to the range. The conditions were more or less identical. I consulted my notes, and loaded up some more of the same. They went into the same tight little low two. Not take notes...you would have to be a fool.
 
IMO, there is very little point of load develpment as discussed in depth here if you dont take really detailed notes, which is just not hard to do in any way. All my keeper targets get the load info in the detail boyd laid out written right on the target so there is no confusion. One other periodic thing to add is a measurement of your lands so you can keep track of erosion over round count.
 
BoydAllen said:
The only fly in the ointment is the condition of the powder. If the powder was unchanged, by exposure to humidity, or lack thereof, the load should work. I keep notes, and load at the range. Often, I go to my notes for similar conditions, and the results are usually good.
I agree with Boyd and woolenmammouth that note taking is absolutely necessary, I haven't started working with my first 6ppc yet but plan on it if the weather will cooperate soon, and I will have a note book dedicated to that rifle as I do with all my rifles including hunting guns, I have actually on a couple hunting rifles over the years referred back to my journals to find my next best load as they quit making the bullets or powder I was using, I would have hated to start load development all over again.
Wayne.
 
Otter said:
Boyd, you say you go to your notes. What exactly do you record?

I would say without notes or a damn good memory of what shot best under a certain set of conditions, reloading at the range won't do you any good. Without that information, how would you know what to do.

I gather as temps go up, powder charge will go down. Are you looking for a certain velocity by changing powder charge? Or is it about harmonics?

otter as temp goes up ,sometimes when throwing powder charges you have to go up on the powder charge
it's one of them things that is hard to remember and hard to convince your self to do.
but it does not allways work that way, And yes tuneing at a match can be a bad thing, i have watched many shooters searching for the load or tune all day and never shoot any good. I shot in a match and my first group at two hunderd yards was a .850, I was like wow what im i going to do..it was early morning first group so i went up four clicks on the powder measure and that was what it wanted and my next group was a .550 but 4 of them was a .290 , AH the wind., if i can ever figure out how to shoot in the wind. I shot in a score match and feel i learned more about shooting in the wind, I did not do real well, but was starting to get a handle on the wind. alot of times group shooting i just shoot fast or just shoot and don't care about the wind other than to try and not get caught in a reverse or a gust..but with the score shooting you have to dope the wind to get them in the x. I still rather shoot group's, but can see score is going to help me learn them wind flags.
 
This is exactly what I use, and where I got it.
http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/174318/Oxford-Spiral-Bound-Index-Cards-Ruled/
Previously I used tablets that had paper pages that tended to get "messed up" in various ways by the rough handling and hurried packing that they got as part of my range reloading kit. The card stock that I currently use is pretty much impervious to rough handling, and you can't fault the price. Of course I have a ball point pen in the kit as well. Not a fancy rig, but it works for me.
Boyd
 

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