6PPC VS 6mmBR Opinions on Accuracy

[johara1]

A lot of absolutes in your post Dusty, but I know several very good shooters that are well versed in a ppc but openly admit to having no or nearly no experience with anything else. No one is saying that a PPC isn't great...It is. I only hope that we don't stay so close minded as to believe that any 45-50 year old design is the end all, be all. There are other variables like lot to lot variations and powders used. Some lots, IMHO, benefit from a tad more or less capacity to optimize that powder and bullet combo to the case capacity. I'm not one to use an electric toothbrush to vibrate cases so I can fit more powder into it. The fact that powder lots vary, to the point of going to extremes to get enough in the case, in itself, says that the case is not ideal for that powder, or vice versa. Very heavy compression slows a powder down a bit as well. When splitting hairs, and things such as lot to lot variations create a moving target in regard to perfect case capacity, I dare not claim absolutes and any improvement over a PPC will likely be very small.

You guys beat the band for point blank, but they won't cut it any where past but 300 if that to the 6Br Imp. I was waiting for years when the IBS was going to have a match were you were going to have all the different disciplines shoot at a longer range like 300 yds heavy SR. guns against lt.600 and a 1000 yard guns but it never happened.... I wonder why..... lmao...jim

 

[jimmymac]

Jimmy, I said one gun one case design over a 1000 yards, not only at 1 and 200, big difference. the PPC and the 30 dominate at point blank, but are not even remotely competitive beyond. The 6Br Imp may not win at UBR but it will be there but you take your 30 BR to a 600 match and see were you end up, The 6Br Imp will be there too you may not win but you have a chance. Same with a 1000, The Br Imp you are competitive everywhere from 100 to a 1000..... One gun and one Case,two barrels, the real switch barrel gun....... jim

Thanks James. I understood your post completely.

My response was more geared towards Bill Norris response in post #22. Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes I'm bad about not quoting posts.

 

[johara1]

The post was about 1,2,300 and beyond right?... A PPC and 30BR and "beyond "aren't in the same sentence.....The BR Imp. will produce very good accuracy at 100 and very good accuracy at 1000...... now the PPC and the 30 br will produce great accuracy at 100 and zip at 1000..... jim

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The post was about 1,2,300 and beyond right?...

No. Go back and read the context of "and beyond" in the op.
You're basically the only one talking about long range in this thread.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Depends how you look at things I think in terms of accuracy from a 100 to a 1000 the the 6br imp. is it, With a 80 gr. Bart and 8208 it shot mid to low zeros with a 12 twist barrel at 100, put an 8 twist barrel on and it will shoot in small and win at 600 and 1000 with H4895 and Barts 105. that is one gun and one case and two barrels capable of match winning accuracy over a 1000 yds and it does it easy..... jim

One or two teen groups does not make a 2 or 3 day aggregate
The reason everyone shoots the ppc is it will out agg the rest

 

[johara1]

I've read and also been told by a couple of shooters that the 6PPC will produce better accuracy at 100 - 200 yds. than the 6mmBR, but the 6mmBR will produce better accuracy at 300 yds. and beyond than the 6PPC. Is this pretty much the rule of thumb by most or is it a matter of personal opinion ? I know twist rate and bullet weight will play it's part.

Yes I can read, beyond.... .jim

 

[Tim s]

As other have said, given this is a monkey see monkey do discipline the field has been dominated by PPC’s especially if you consider ultimate resale.
That said, a BR, properly set up is probably the equal.
I have shot, for quite a few years with Remington BR guys including Jimmy Stekl, who largely invented it and when he was active stomped the field for some time with a BR all the way to HOF, those guys are still shooting them very well....very well.
The PPC simply became the “ latest and greatest” and never turned back or suffered any pause in popularity.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ultimately, the PPC came along at a time where there was room for improvement in consistent performance, which is all that really matters in this game. Over the years since, the cartridge hasn't changed but components, equipment and possibly shooters have improved a ton upon that. Now, it's hard to imagine anything being greatly better based on cartridge design alone. But lets not confuse "greatly" with "significant." A much smaller improvement today is quite significant. I believe equipment and other factors over the last 45 years have played a much larger role in the much better aggs and scores we see today than does 6ppc vs. .222 Rem., for example. The old match reports show this.

Records do matter, especially when they stand the test of time the way that the 5 shot 100 yd .009 group with a .222 did for 40 years of advancements in all areas, including the fact that virtually every shooter, at every match, on every card since then, was shooting a PPC along with all of the advancements in other areas that we saw before that record fell, not to a PPC but to a 30 Grendel. In a 10.5lb rifle, on top of that, with an incredible .0077 group. Many said that record would never be broken and it did take a very long time and lots of shots fired into berms trying.

 

[BoydAllen]

One little detail....short range benchrest group events are not won by shooting the smallest group. They are won by the person with the smallest average group size, and those averages have gotten smaller over time, for a variety of reasons.

 

[geo.ulrich]

As other have said, given this is a monkey see monkey do discipline the field has been dominated by PPC’s especially if you consider ultimate resale.
That said, a BR, properly set up is probably the equal.
I have shot, for quite a few years with Remington BR guys including Jimmy Stekl, who largely invented it and when he was active stomped the field for some time with a BR all the way to HOF, those guys are still shooting them very well....very well.
The PPC simply became the “ latest and greatest” and never turned back or suffered any pause in popularity.

Actually Jim and Donna were in the Hall of Fame before the ppc came out or the br for that matter. The ppc gained traction because the 6 mm which was being tried to beat the 222/223 family and the 6 based 6 x 47 had no velocity and got blown around to much. When Lou Palmisano came out and won part of the nationals with a 22 ppc the case became popular.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

One little detail....short range benchrest group events are not won by shooting the smallest group. They are won by the person with the smallest average group size, and those averages have gotten smaller over time, for a variety of reasons.

Boyd, read the first sentence in my last post, Sir. I completely agree. And yes, aggs have gotten smaller for a variety of reasons. We agree there too, my friend. I'm really not sure if we disagree on anything that I've said here. I've not proclaimed anything to be superior to a PPC. The closest I have come is when I stated that if I thought it was better than a 6 Grendel, I'd be back to shooting one before dark. I also gave some benefits of the Grendel case but the PPC isn't dead yet and it won't die just because I say so or not, so it's safe for now.

Where we appear to differ is that I just hate to see anyone told not to try to find an edge wherever it can be found based on what everyone else is doing. We don't get better that way. I prefer to not base my conclusions on what others do, for their own reasons. Many times, the best reason someone can give for doing something is, that's what everyone else does...Drives me nuts! Lol!

One can't dismiss being beaten with something else, blaming themselves or any number of reasons...just like we can't dismiss fliers. If a relatively unknown shooter shows up and beats a majority of the rest of the field, you can't dismiss that something he or she is doing, is working. When that happens regularly, it is proven to be sound. Notice that I didn't say best. Any differences can be attributed to the shooter, both better and worse. I don't think you can deny that. Now I'm not saying anyone should show up with a 50BMG and expect to win...but we're not talking about that. We're talking about very, very similar cartridges and loads here.

 

[butchlambert]

Boyd, read the first sentence in my last post, Sir. I completely agree. And yes, aggs have gotten smaller for a variety of reasons. We agree there too, my friend. I'm really not sure if we disagree on anything that I've said here. I've not proclaimed anything to be superior to a PPC. The closest I have come is when I stated that if I thought it was better than a 6 Grendel, I'd be back to shooting one before dark. I also gave some benefits of the Grendel case but the PPC isn't dead yet and it won't die just because I say so or not, so it's safe for now.

Where we appear to differ is that I just hate to see anyone told not to try to find an edge wherever it can be found based on what everyone else is doing. We don't get better that way. I prefer to not base my conclusions on what others do, for their own reasons. Many times, the best reason someone can give for doing something is, that's what everyone else does...Drives me nuts! Lol!

One can't dismiss being beaten with something else, blaming themselves or any number of reasons...just like we can't dismiss fliers. If a relatively unknown shooter shows up and beats a majority of the rest of the field, you can't dismiss that something he or she is doing, is working. When that happens regularly, it is proven to be sound. Notice that I didn't say best. Any differences can be attributed to the shooter, both better and worse. I don't think you can deny that. Now I'm not saying anyone should show up with a 50BMG and expect to win...but we're not talking about that. We're talking about very, very similar cartridges and loads here.

Was Mike Stinnett's 30 Stewart a 30BR or Grendel? Remember Michael Turner's 30-30 has shot a few teen aggs.

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that shooters who are good enough to benefit from slight differences in excellent cartridges, and who have the budget. will not require any advice as to what they might try, but I am concerned that someone who is just starting out might spend hard to come by money on something that is not well proven.

Years ago, someone who was a leader in the rimfire tuner world would post that centerfire tuners work just the same as rimfire. Previously I had read of carefully done tests using those barrel contours and tuners on a PPC that failed to produce acceptable results, so I challenged him to build a rifle that proved what he had said. He never did. If fact a prominent shooter offered to have one built if he would furnish the specifications. He did not take him up on that offer. The reason that I challenged his statements is that I did not want someone to go on an expensive wild goose chase. Most new shooters that I know of will not be limited in the least by starting with a 6PPC, and given the great amount of information available for that caliber, and typical limitations of understanding of tuning, I think that the advantage will always be there.

Recently a friend completed his first year in short range group benchrest. We discussed every match during the season. He has excellent equipment. Virtually all of his groups that cost him were the result of shooter error, mostly in failing to maintain tune through changes in temperature. No equipment or component change would have prevented them. Neither would a change in caliber. His overall record for the season was excellent, and I expect next year to show improvement. My message to him has been consistent. If you know that something works, leave it alone and concentrate on the things that are giving you trouble. The object of shooting benchrest matches is to win them. Do your experimenting between matches and take the best that you have to matches. Avoid doing unnecessary experiments at matches.

 

[Tim s]

Actually Jim and Donna were in the Hall of Fame before the ppc came out or the br for that matter. The ppc gained traction because the 6 mm which was being tried to beat the 222/223 family and the 6 based 6 x 47 had no velocity and got blown around to much. When Lou Palmisano came out and won part of the nationals with a 22 ppc the case became popular.

thanks George, I guess he won a some with it and a SuperShoot., point being, run properly it was right there.
I suspect part of that equation was when Remington was turning out those great BR bullets.
Jimmy turned 80 recently.....still shoots one.

 

[butchlambert]

I think that shooters who are good enough to benefit from slight differences in excellent cartridges, and who have the budget. will not require any advice as to what they might try, but I am concerned that someone who is just starting out might spend hard to come by money on something that is not well proven.

Years ago, someone who was a leader in the rimfire tuner world would post that centerfire tuners work just the same as rimfire. Previously I had read of carefully done tests using those barrel contours and tuners on a PPC that failed to produce acceptable results, so I challenged him to build a rifle that proved what he had said. He never did. If fact a prominent shooter offered to have one built if he would furnish the specifications. He did not take him up on that offer. The reason that I challenged his statements is that I did not want someone to go on an expensive wild goose chase. Most new shooters that I know of will not be limited in the least by starting with a 6PPC, and given the great amount of information available for that caliber, and typical limitations of understanding of tuning, I think that the advantage will always be there.

Recently a friend completed his first year in short range group benchrest. We discussed every match during the season. He has excellent equipment. Virtually all of his groups that cost him were the result of shooter error, mostly in failing to maintain tune through changes in temperature. No equipment or component change would have prevented them. Neither would a change in caliber. His overall record for the season was excellent, and I expect next year to show improvement. My message to him has been consistent. If you know that something works, leave it alone and concentrate on the things that are giving you trouble. The object of shooting benchrest matches is to win them. Do your experimenting between matches and take the best that you have to matches. Avoid doing unnecessary experiments at matches.

Problem is Boyd, We know it all after the first year. We get a couple more barrels, different powders, and bullets and go in the trashcan.

 

[butchlambert]

thanks George, I guess he won a some with it and a SuperShoot., point being, run properly it was right there.
I suspect part of that equation was when Remington was turning out those great BR bullets.
Jimmy turned 80 recently.....still shoots one.

Visited with Jimmy about a month ago. I believe he shot more this year than the last few.

 

[jamesdmock]

We shoot 300 yards each month and the 6 PPC has won, but under normal circumstances it cannot beat the 6 BR. However, that is due mainly to the PPC shooting short (low BC) bullets and the BR with 105 VLD's. The short bullets in the PPC are accurate at 300 yards as proven by Gary Ocock's 0.149" group, but when the wind blows, the PPC is blown about too much. Good shooting...James

 

[Tim s]

Visited with Jimmy about a month ago. I believe he shot more this year than the last few.

He had both eyes done and he’s killing’em, primarily shooting long range score.

 

[Bill Norris]

We shoot 300 yards each month and the 6 PPC has won, but under normal circumstances it cannot beat the 6 BR. However, that is due mainly to the PPC shooting short (low BC) bullets and the BR with 105 VLD's. The short bullets in the PPC are accurate at 300 yards as proven by Gary Ocock's 0.149" group, but when the wind blows, the PPC is blown about too much. Good shooting...James

Thanks James. This is kind of where my thought process was when I posted the initial question however, I certainly do enjoy reading about the other aspects of both chamberings at even further distances. As I mentioned early on I will never be a B R shooter by no means but since I have owned the 6PPC in the past and now have a new unfired custom build 6BR with a 1 -14 and another one being built with a 1 - 8 barrel I was wondering if I should expect the 6 BR to be just as accurate at 100 to 300 yds.

 

[Ccrider]

[QUOTE="Bill Norris, post: I was wondering if I should expect the 6 BR to be just as accurate at 100 to 300 yds.[/QUOTE]

And the simple answer to that is it may be. Depends on the barrel, bullets and load tune.