6ppc questions

[Sandamer]

Hello, I am brand new to this site and to bench shooting. I had a couple questions and figured I would take this chance to introduce myself.

I have a 6ppc with 1 - 14 twist barrel. I have been shooting 70 smk's and I am not very excited about the results as of yet. I started with Varget (I heard it handled temperature swings the best) and have since changed to H322. It seems to group a bit better but not much. Are the 70's too heavy for that twist? I am sure a lot of my problem is me.

I am shooting almost exclusively at 300 yards at this point and looking for a bit of load development advice. I am in a winter league so tempos range from 5-35 degrees. My current load is:

70 SMK
H322 @ 26.5 gr
Norma Brass
CCI 450 primer

I am loading about .003 off the lands.

Any advice would be great and thanks for all of the information I have already sponged from the site.

 

[LHSmith]

What type of winter league?
Why are you starting out at 300 yds?
Are you using wind flags?
Norma brass?
What type of rest?/ solid bench?
Make/type of rifle/scope
How many rounds down bbl?

 

[82boy]

IMO the 6PPC is the most amazing round I have found. I would say that with a 70gr bullet you are pushing your 14 twist barrel to the limit. Most BR shooters shoot 65-68 gr bullets. It just may be your barrel doesn't like what your feeding it, try something else. MOst BR shooters do well with Barts Ultra's, you may want to try Berger, and other bullets.

IMO Varget is way too slow for a PPC. I would say you took a turn in the right direction going to H322. The most popular powder choice is Vitavori N133, another new contender is IMR 8208XBR. Most BR shooters dont use Magnum primers like the CCI 450, but most common use is the Federal 205M. Most BR shooters shoot Lapua 220 Russian brass, but your Norma brass should be fine.

As mentioned in the above post, why are you shooting at 300 yard? Use of wind flags is a must, and a good solid platform is a must. I hope this helps.

 

[Bulseyetom]

H322 is not a bad powder for the 6ppc but not the most popular. I have shot 68 grain bullets in the past with it and was somewhat competitive. All being said, the biggest thing is learning to shoot with flags. Shooting without them is just shooting and you have no hope of shooting small groups. Bag set up is probably the next most important thing. If a rifle returns to battery the groups seem to shrink magically! Fight the set up and the groups grow! I never shot at 300 yards but 200 yards small mistakes seem to make small groups impossible. Heck, even at 100 yards us novices can't agg with the big boys very often, but that occasional group in the 1's drives you back for more punishment. Benchrest shooting is a much more mental game than I ever thought it would be. Have fun shooting, that is what it is all about. Tom

 

[BoydAllen]

Where did you come up with that seating depth? How did you do your load development? PPC Shooters get a lot out of their equipment by being the most sophisticated tuners in the planet, mostly loading at the range, and always shooting over flags. What are your methods?

 

[Sandamer]

I am really new to benchrest shooting. I have been hunting for years and reloading for quite some time, but I have just recently (last year or so)really started to try to learn this stuff.

I appreciate the input I got. I will try some different bullets, and change primers.

I hate sounding like a new guy, but what else do you do when you are a new guy?

I shoot 300 because that is the distance for the league, no other reason really. this is a casual league and not much at stake, so I thought it would be a good introduction for me. I have shot this gun at 100 and 200, but lately just shooting at 300. I do shoot with some wind flags, but the wind has not been too big of an issue thus far, I have been lucky in that respect.

The rest I use is not very good. It seems to have some play in the adjustments, and I should probably upgrade in that area, any suggestions?

The rifle was built on a 40xbr action with a Lilja barrel (I believe) I have no idea on the round. I have considered re barreling, but I have not had the gun long enough to make that determination. I was told the stock was McMillan.

Thanks for the help.

 

[birdog]

Check your personal message

 

[BoydAllen]

There is nothing wrong with being a new guy. I have always thought that the early learning stages of a new hobby or area of interest were the most fun...so much to learn In any case, I would recommend that you get set up so that you can load at the range, so that you can do an efficient load development. I would be happy to walk you through all of this if you will PM me I think that it is easier to do on the phone, given all the details involved. This need not involve spending much money, and it has the potential of showing you what your current barrel has to offer.

 

[LHSmith]

H-322 can be very accurate in the ppc, charges however, must be kept on the low side to get there....meaning your velocity will be down and the wind will have more time to affect the bullet. I would suggest to try Berger 68gr.FB match.
Although it may appear that wind is not having much of an effect on your target accuracy, you really don't know for sure. Bring your target in to 100 yds to minimize the variables and get a baseline.
What targets are used in this league? # shots? Rests off of benches?
Give us more details on your equipment.

 

[82boy]

Good stuff doesn't have to be expensive, many in this game want to throw money around, you don't have to have the latest and greatest stuff. Your Rem 40X is good enough, heck many record have been shot with them, and I believe that they can still hold their own. You Lilja barrel is a good name, and a PPC can get a lot of rounds down the tube before they loose accuracy. I know shooters who say that they get 4000 rounds out of a barrel, even though they choose to rebarrel sooner. Nothing wrong with a McMillion stock. Again, nothing wrong with H322, I know shooters who are very competitive with it.

The things that you must have is a stedy bench, and a stedy rest, good glass, (Not expensive but good.) windflags, and pratcice. Dont expect to be the greatest overnight, the best shooters are the ones that shoot the most. Wind flags dont have to be complex, I shoot with a fellow that is in the blackpowder benchrest hall of fame, all he has is some survayors tape, on some metal hangers, and he is one of the best shooters I have seen.

You wouold be suprised how much the wind affects bullet movement, just because the wind has been light doesn't mean it isn't reeking havoc. Some of the most dificult shooting I have done is when the wind is still, I would much rather shoot in a constant predictable wind.

I would go to 100 yards and do some load developement, then when you got it figgured out there, then go out to 300 yards. Try diferent seating depths on your bullets. Some reloading tools you may want to get if you dont already have them is a primer pocket uniformer, and a case trimmer. PPC bass responds to length trimming, I have also found that uniforming the primer pockets after every firing helps. Here is a few videos to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SZWvn68bRU&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOPf5Iva-Oo&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DAIBx9uWmQ&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CtzuS_0wkc&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEhjBs66rk&feature=player_detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILvH6TYNcx8&feature=player_detailpage

 

[Sandamer]

Wow thanks for taking the time to write all this info for me.

I have a 36x Leupold scope on this rifle. It seems to do the job very well out to 300 yards, and I think I can see the grains in the paper at 100 yards with it.

I did do some development at 100 yards and shot a few groups in the .15" range, however when I moved back to 300 with that load I am in the 2.5" range and very inconsistent.

I ordered some 68 gr bergers, both bt and fb to try them out. I do a pocket uniformer, but I only use it after every 3 or 4 firings. I am using the Stainless steel tumbling media (which seems to do a nice job).

As far as exactly what I have for a gun, I got it from a guy that did not know for sure, but I have given the information he gave me.

Here is a pic of the gun:

You guys probably know better than I do what it is. haha.

I do shoot from a very solid bench, but my front rest is a cheapo. It is a Smart Reloader.

http://www.smartreloader.com/smartreloader-sr679-black-granit-rest-p-3918.html

This is one of the things I want to upgrade, but I have not learned enough about them to know what I am looking for, or how to get the ,most out of it.

As far as flags go I put tape on my target backing, and maybe one more in front of the target.

Thanks for all of the help.

 

[82boy]

Excellent looking rig! You have a very sought after scope, It is a good one, just hold onto it.

Most BR shooters do not tumble their brass, they may use some brass cleaning cloths, or fine steel wool, but that is it. Many believe that tumbling brass will work harden it.

I am very suprised that the smart reloader rest is not preforming well. I have looked at them in the past and thought they was fairly well made. You can wrap up a ton of money into a rest, but I would recamend either a Sinclair or Hart, they get the job done. What kind of bags are you useing, and how full are they with sand?

On flags, I would recamend spacing them out , at 100 yards I will set a flag at 15 yards, 30 yards, 50 yards, and 75 yards. There are several schools of thought, some beleive that the wind affects the bullet more at the muzzel, and some beleive that wind affects the bullet more at the target, but they would both agree that you need to watch the flags in the middle, as well as the other flags. At longer distances I would add more flags. Watch what way the wind is blowing, and place your flags so that you can see them react before condition/wind gets to the lane you are shooting in. When I am shooting by myself I may places flags on both sides of the lane I am shooting in, so I can see what the wind is doing before it gets to my other flags.

How often do you clean the barrel? Most benchrest shooters shooting 6PPC will clean their barrel after each relay, or before they have 15 rounds down the barrel. Most prefer Butches bore shine, most BR shooters use bronze brushes.

You may want to buy Glenn Newicks book "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy." It is slightly dated, but it has some VERY good information in it. It is cheap you can find copies online for a couple of bucks. Heck, I think you can buy it new for under $10. I would say it is one of the best reads you can get your hands on.

 

[Sandamer]

There is nothing wrong with being a new guy. I have always thought that the early learning stages of a new hobby or area of interest were the most fun...so much to learn

I totally agree with you on that. I am having a blast trying to figure this out. I started down a different path when I lived out west. I was looking into long range silhouette shooting and built guns accordingly. However, I moved east and there aren't very many place around here to shoot 1k. ( I have a 338 lapua that's never been out past 300) Now I am having fun trying to get small group on shorter ranges.

 

[Sandamer]

I am very suprised that the smart reloader rest is not preforming well. I have looked at them in the past and thought they was fairly well made. You can wrap up a ton of money into a rest, but I would recamend either a Sinclair or Hart, they get the job done. What kind of bags are you useing, and how full are they with sand?

Here is a pic of the bag I am using, I think that may be the main source of my problems. The bag is lumpy and not even it appears. I just ordered an Edgewood 3" bag and will swap it out when it gets here.

I filled it with tumbling media and made it pretty full as you can see.

 

[82boy]

I dont think it is the bags fault, get the tumbling media out of it and put some sand in.

 

[LHSmith]

Nice looking rig. You are correct, that is a Mcmillan Edge stock. It looks like that set-up would be GTG for registered short-range BR competition. I looked on the IBS website for a range that holds matches close to you. Holmen, WI is closest, followed by Webster City, IA.
Before you commit to too many upgrades, I suggest you make or purchase at least 3 sets of flags, ask a lot of questions, and try to attend a registered match to see first hand what BR is about. With decent flags you will see how complex wind patterns can be. Imho, a wind indicator at the target frame is use-less....the bullets already there.
What kind of rear bag? How are you holding the rifle?

 

[BoydAllen]

The bag is not the correct shape for a 3" wide forend. The stock is the original McMillan Benchrest design (not the EDGE), that works just fine, and is still in production. You can look on their web site and see the difference. Nothing wrong with your stock.
The thing about matching twist and bullets is the length of the bullet as compared with the diameter. If a bullet is too long, there can be problems. How long are your 70 gr. Sierras?

 

[Sandamer]

Alright will do.

 

[Sandamer]

The bag is not the correct shape for a 3" wide forend. The stock is the original McMillan Benchrest design (not the EDGE), that works just fine, and is still in production. You can look on their web site and see the difference. Nothing wrong with your stock.
The thing about matching twist and bullets is the length of the bullet as compared with the diameter. If a bullet is too long, there can be problems. How long are your 70 gr. Sierras?

When ask for the length do you mean overall length or Ogive?

 

[GerryM]

Use zurcon heavy sand and form it to the stock. It must be packed tight
Same with the rear bag, Try some 66 or 65 gr bullets with your rifle. Br primers are good but even some other ones like wolf or tula small rifle mag primers work very well. The link with Jack Neary is a great one. He knows his stuff on tuneing.
Try His methods and you will shrink your groups . Flags Are very IMPORTANT. you may have several different wind conditions at different ranges. IE one flag showing a speed and direction at 50 or 100 yds and others farther out doing something different. Remember to set flags for distances
Most shooters have 6 or more set at different ranges to shoot 300 yds,
You shoot some sighters using each wind flag as a referance to see which ones are telling you the most reliable information. When you get the right direction and wind velocity shoot only when they come back to that same direction. After a while you will be able to hold of the appropriate amount with practice.
It takes time but iT will pay off after some hard practice