6mm Norma BR, 6mm BR Remington, 6mm BR, 6BR

[Area Man]

I've googled this question several times and get into drawn out confusing discussions about old 6BR Remington, and changes by Norma, and blah, blah, blah.

My new Savage Model 12 BR has 6mm Norma BR stamped on the barrel. But if I got to Midway, for example, and try to buy a set of dies, they only list 6mm BR dies. So I purchased a set of Reddings (Redding #38317) and it comes with 6mm B.R. Remington on the label on the box.

Hodgdon lists data for 6mm BR Remington and the other day I posted some load data from the Hodgdon site and someone remarked that the data was for 6mm BR Remington and not 6mm Norma BR.

Aren't these all the same??

 

[ReedG]

This from the 6mm BR Cartridge Guide on this web site:

6mmBR Cartridge Basics
The 6mm BR that is most commonly used today is also called 6mm Norma BR, “6BR Norma”, or just plain “6BR”. This cartridge was based on the original 6mm Remington Benchrest case. Though there are very slight differences between the SAMMI spec for the 6mm Rem BR and the CIP spec for the 6mm BR Norma, the OAL case length is the same. We’ve observed that there may be small variances in base dimensions among production brass, from brand to brand. Though Norma standardized the round, most people shoot Lapua brass, because of its superior quality and uniformity, not to mention lower cost. The case capacity of Lapua brass is about 38-39.5 grains of H20, after fire-forming. The exact capacity depends on your gun’s chamber and the brass lot. The 6mm BR is one of the most accurate cartridges in existence, bettered only by the PPC type cases in group shooting, and the 30BR in score shooting. The 6BR is very versatile, capable of great accuracy with bullets ranging from 50 to 108 grains.

Lots of good information here:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6mmbr/

 

[Area Man]

Reed: I had read all of that. It does not answer the basic question: TODAY, Ain't they all the same?

 

[Lapua40X]

Technically, NO, they are not the same. Max. COAL is different, trim length is different, etc.
However, practically speaking, I use mid range 6BR Remington load data for my 6BR Norma and work up from there. It's when I'm purchasing brass that I get picky. Although I've talked with shooters who seem to believe that "fire forming" 6BR Remington brass in their Norma chamber is acceptable, I disagree. I use only Laupa 6BR Norma BRbrass.

 

[Area Man]

If you need dies for a 6mm Norma BR, do you buy dies for 6mm BR Remington? Can I assume that all the dies sold as 6mm BR are what I need for 6mm Norma BR?

As for brass, Lapua sells 6mm Norma BR brass, so there is no question there.

 

[Area Man]

I use only Laupa 6BR Norma brass

I can't find that. I have Lapua 6mm Norma BR brass. ;D

 

[flur60]

Area Man, Check out the information posted by Lapua on their brass located on the MidwayUSA website.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/323515/lapua-reloading-brass-6mm-norma-br-bench-rest-box-of-100

"Important Note about 6mm BR Lapua Brass:
Brass is headstamped 6MM Norma BR to meet European CIP requirements but the case dimensions are IDENTICAL to the 6mm BR Remington. This may cause confusion as some people understand the cartridge cases are different in dimensions. In fact it is the chamber dimensions, not the cartridge dimensions that changed. 6mm BR and 6mm BR Norma use the same case specifications however the difference between the two is the cartridge overall length specification with the BR Norma utilizing a longer heavier bullet."

Case dimensions are the same between Norma & Remington Brass but the chamber dimensions are different. The Norma chamber has a deeper throat to accept longer bullets for long range requirements.

 

[Lapua40X]

I use only Laupa 6BR Norma brass

I can't find that. I have Lapua 6mm Norma BR brass. ;D

Your sense of humour is not lost here

 

[cocopuff]

as far as I know they are boththe same thing,only the norma chamber is usually a little longer to allow the bullet to be seated out more therefor allowing a bit more powder...I have the 6br rem. chamber so I can not seat the bullets out as far as some can.But I could have the chamber reamed to do so if I wanted to..
In fact if you have a Berger loading manual,you will see the difference...
The brass is the same length UNLESS you go 6mmbrx...then you have to fire form the brass to get the little extra length..I have seen NO benifit for doing so..In fact my rem.6br has out shot some of the other brx's..

Hope you aint too confused now....John

 

[Webster]

I had Kelbly put my Kreiger 6BR Norma barrel on my 700 BDL Remington. They sold me Redding "6mm BR Remington" dies. I have reloaded about 1800 6BR Norma cartridges with the 6mm BR Rem dies. No problem. The case dimensions for both are in the Berger manual. It looks like there is only about 0.001" in difference in dimensions. One of them has a slightly shorter neck. I think I read somewhere one of them may have a tiny difference in wall thickness around the head. Since you always work your loads up below the max charge in a reloading manual I would consider the data exchangeable between the two.

 

[25AI260]

this may clear up some of the question... i have used 6 and 7mm br remington brass along with 6br lapau brass an found after fire forming i can't tell the difference any longer ..using redding die set..
.
info page-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_BR

 

[Area Man]

Thanks. I'll quit worrying about it. For my purpose they are all the same.

 

[johara1]

The old Rem is smaller in the base than Lapua, length you can dance with. If you have one that was chambered for the old 6 BR Rem. the Lapua in 6 BR. won't go in, too big in the base.....jim

 

[jonbearman]

Call redding and they will clear it all up.The fella I talked way back told me that is the way they started stamping the caliber on the die's year's ago and are not going to change it.Roll stamp's are not cheap.

 

[LHSmith]

You are GTG, as Johara said, the only problems that arise are with 6BR Rem chambers reamed for the early ( ~1978 -1989) issued 7BR Rem case which had to be necked down to make 6 BR.

 

[KevinThomas]

Area Man,

Sorry, a little late to this discussion, but yes, there is a difference; that's why they two cartridges bear different names. CIP regulations REQUIRE a change in nomenclature when anything in the cartridge, case, chamber or load is altered. Unlike SAAMI, CIP membership legally requires compliance with their regs, by force of law. So anytime anything is changed, a new title or name MUST be applied to the resulting cartridge. The 6mm BR was developed by Remington, specifically for US Benchrest competition. As a result, 68-72 grain bullets, usually with appropriately short throats to match. Some years later, the Europeans began looking at this case for use in 300 Meter competition, as it meet the requirements for that demanding game perfectly. Outstanding accuracy, very mild recoil, and the ability to utilize very high BC match bullets like the various 107-107 grain offerings. Norma took the step of loading ammo for this combination, using 105 grain HPBTs. As they are a CIP member, and the ammunition required a faster twist and a longer throat than the original 6mm BR loadings, they had to change the name to denote the difference. This is what became the 6mm BR Norma. The cases are dimensionally identical (aside from minor production variances from one maker to another) and are completely interchangeable. The rifles, however, are different; same chamber, but different throats and twists. You won't be able to chamber 6mm BR Norma ammo in most 6mm BR rifles, as the ogive will jam the rifling long before you come anywhere near closing the bolt. Even if you could close the bolt, the 1x14" twist (fairly common on 6mm Rem BR guns) certainly won't come close to stabilizing the 105s or 107s. Dies for these should be identical, but may require different seating stems or plugs, due to the markedly different bullet styles used in these two.

Been a lot of confusion over these two over the years, and I hope this helps clear it up just a bit. For what it's worth, I've had a 6mm BR for many years. Great rifle, but it's set up with that 1x14" I mentioned, and is limited to lighter, short range BR style bullets. I have a 1x8" 6mm barrel that's sitting on the shelf, and that's destined to become a 6mm BR Norma down the road. Anyway, I hope this helps clarify the situation!

 

[Webster]

You didn't mention the 6mmBR Norma has a neck about o.024" longer. I don't think you could chamber a an empty 6mmBR Norma case in a chamber cut for 6mmBR Remington? What you stated was exactly what was in the Berger manual but I don't think the barrel twist or bullet length normally has anything to do with the name of the cartridge. I can buy an 8 or 15 twist for a 6BR. You can make the free bore any length you want to accommodate the bullet length it has nothing to do with the cartridge name.

 

[expiper]

Webby ,,,you are rite ,,,I had one of the first of the BR's bak in the 70's,,,,those old Rem brass were a bugger to make and would last about 10 loadisngs if you were luky,,,,then along came factory Rem (both 7mm and 6mm versions,,,the 6mm were the new 1.570 chamber and the 7mm matched to original 1.520) I had to shorten the new Rem brass to work in the old chambers that were in use for the early days,,,,then along came Norma from Europe it was the 1.555 to work in the new CIP length chambers ,,,,and thes Euro brass were fatter at the .200 line ,,aprox .004 bigger than the Rem original,,,they wouldnt chamber in old chamber (like you said Webby) because of length issues and the fat base dim......of course when Lapua showed up in the 90's most shooters realized how good it was and got their chambers reamed out to the new longer/fatter dims,,,,and anyone with any sense threw away their old reamers and re-tooled for todays modern Lapua --6mm Norma BR...Roger