Ive been having a problem during the initial necking down of the Hornady grendel brass. I've set up the whidden die as per instruction using the provided shim to form the false shoulder. Each piece I run through the die comes out with one side of the shoulder buckled slightly and the mouths lop sided. I've tried the die in two different presses, tried both a dry type lube and spray lube ensuring inside and outside the case, cleaned the die numerous times, used a slow ram arm raise and fast. Its as if the cases just wont center up in the die and making them all wonky. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
6mm fatrat problems
- Thread starter simplerider
- Start date
DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
Are you using Imperial Sizing wax?? If not try it. It is great for case forming.
haven't tried wax. Used hornady one shot and forster mica powder.
TAJ45
Silver $$ Contributor
Very seldom is the die bad....but it has happened to a club member. Maybe
a Cerro safe app would be in order if the wax doesn't work.
Ive used both wax and one shot when prepping to fire form fat rat brass. Both worked equally well. You might have a very tight neck die??? Our first dies from Hornady were, but no probs like you describe. We have set the die up more than the .008 with similarly good results. Maybe you could turn your out a quarter turn and see if the deformity follows the die??
I would suggest measuring everything and call Lee and see what he says.
I would suggest measuring everything and call Lee and see what he says.
What neck bushing are you using? I used only one shot to form my fat rat brass and had zero issues.
Is the sizing process smooth or does it feel like its requiring more than expected force?
Are the necks and buckle always indexed to the same side?
What happens if you size partially and then spin the case 180 degrees and finishing the sizing?
Is the sizing process smooth or does it feel like its requiring more than expected force?
Are the necks and buckle always indexed to the same side?
What happens if you size partially and then spin the case 180 degrees and finishing the sizing?
The die is a Whidden FL sizing die, no bushing. it usually sizes down to about .269 so I don't think its a tight die. Sizing process feels smooth with no binding or excess force. I will have to see if the abnormality Is on the same side and try spinning.
Let us know what you find out about the case orientation. I use a whidden FL bushing die that's why I asked about bushing size
So just got through messing with everything and trying all suggestions. It didn't seem to favor buckling a certain side where the case was oriented. It did it where ever it felt like doing it. I tried sizing half way, spinning and finishing the size but that seemed to over size the neck down and would go to far in the chamber that the bolt extractor couldn't grab the case and was now stuck in the chamber (unloaded cases). I decided to back the die out using a .008 size shim between the die and shell holder instead of the provided .005 shim as Tonysnoo suggested. This seemed to cut down the frequency of the buckling shoulder and still fit the chamber but one side of the case still had the majority of the false shoulder bulge to it. Tried the spinning thing again with the .008 space and again, oversized cases.
I was wondering if Hornady brass is maybe harder than Lapua that most use and could possibly be part of the problem? Thoughts?
I was wondering if Hornady brass is maybe harder than Lapua that most use and could possibly be part of the problem? Thoughts?
That's another problem (different). If the bolt pushed the case in, it should pull the case back out.
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
I only have one Whidden die, but when I started to set it up, I notice something different. I screwed the die down until it touched the shell holder, then backed it out about a quarter to half turn. The first case I sized, pushed the shoulder WAY down. I then had to back the die out a bunch (technical term) to get the shoulder in the correct place. There was a very noticeable gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die.
If I was in your shoes, I would back the die out 3 or 4 turns. Lube up a piece of brass, then start trying to size it. Since you are going down from 6.5 to 6 mm pay attention to the neck. Turn the die down a quarter to a half turn, after each stroke, until you start seeing the neck getting smaller at the mouth. Then carefully size the amount of the neck by turning the die down a little at a time, until the false shoulder is where you want it.
Sorry for the late reply: however Kmart pulled the words out of my mouth. I didn't get the kit from lee with spacers and all that. Don't over think this. Screw the die way out. Lube up a case and raise the ram. Screw the die down until you meet resistance with the case. Lower the ram. Screw the die a couple turns down and size. Look at the case. See where the neck diameter has been decreased? It will only be be the very end. Now start slowly adjusting the die down farther and farther until you have the false should where you want it. This should take several sizing attempts and adjustments. Start checking headspace in your chamber with a sized case. Once the bolt will just close (I like a tight fit) lock the die down. You are done. Size your virgin cases and fireform.
Glad to see great minds think alike. I ended up settling on doing just what you guys suggested. I figured id start from scratch and size a little and check, size a little, check, etc. till I was satisfied with chambering. But whats still bothering me is the way the necks are squeezing down still. its not even around the neck. Its almost like only one side is moving. Some of the shoulders (not as many now) are still buckling and you can definitely see one side that has the false shoulder and the opposite side seems relatively untouched. Ill maybe get 5 or so out of 50 that will come out looking uniform and evenly sized with a nice shoulder all the way around. I know im probably being pretty petty with this seeing as though they are going to end up with the finished product in the end after firing, but I was really hoping to get some good accuracy out of these F/F loads to use in some XTC matches.
Load up 10 rounds with a generic load. Fire form them. Come back and resize them. See what they look like. If they don't look right then call whidden up. It's either the die or the brass. Does the 6.5 Grendel brass look normal ? I.E. symmetrical?
It still sounds like the neck is catching in the die some way. Can you pull out the stem and see any blunt edges in the die or is it tapered all the way into the neck portion. Back when they were first available, I ordered a Whidden bushing die and I think I am using a 268 bushing, so it doesn't sound like your formed neck is far off. I use the same bushing when doing the initial false shoulder for fire forming. I do use the Lapua brass. I have some Norma, but have not tried to form it, yet
It almost sounds as if you might have had two problems.... sizing too deep and maybe some sort of blunt edge in the die.
I assume you are chamfering the outside of the brass just for insurance. Are you using the button?, Any chance the shell holder could be the wrong one and not centering the case.... I'm reaching here, but just thinking out loud.
I've had such good luck with this round and hate to see someone struggling with it.
While not the same round pretty much the same but I've been forming 6 Grendel from 7.62x39, using a cheap Hornady 6.5 Grendel die then thru a Redding bushing die to get it to 6 Grendel. When I had the Fat Rat I used Hornady brass and never ran into what you are experiencing, pretty much just run into the die and shoot! one thing about the Hornady brass I did find out is that it has less capacity than the Lapua by the blown primers 
Honestly from reading sounds like a die issue.
Honestly from reading sounds like a die issue.
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