6mm Creedmoore vs. 6mm SLR

[SHootSTraight22]

I don't think either of those cases have enough boiler room. For 3200+ you need to look at the 6CM (Competition Match) or the 243 Ackley. And a long barrel will be a big help.

My first 6CM (Competition Match) 27" 115 DTAC, H1000, 3225 fps. Winchester .243 brass, I have retired brass with over 20 firings. Dropped the charge a bit and shrunk my 1000 yard groups by just over 2". Last weekend when I was at Core Shooting range in the Black Forest , while checking my 100 yard zero. 3 shots in prone, coldbore and 2 others back to back almost one hole, a very tight ragged hole. This is the norm for this Krieger barrel, 4200 rounds down the barrel. I know we are not talking about the 6CM here. Between the Creed and the SLR I would choose the SLR, 26-28 inch barrel with a 105 and run it in the 3200 area. There are shooters that have done it, bunch of posted info out there on it. Talk to Whitley about it.

Are you going to shoot in the semi auto PRS match coming up in a few months?? I don't have a semi auto to shoot but thought about putting one together with this POF ar15 lower I have.. I understand they will have a 223/308 class plus a seperate open class??? I may do a hot rod 223 ar platform and put my Premier Reticle scope on it with a micro holo sight mounted on the tube..

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I don't think either of those cases have enough boiler room. For 3200+ you need to look at the 6CM (Competition Match) or the 243 Ackley. And a long barrel will be a big help.

My first 6CM (Competition Match) 27" 115 DTAC, H1000, 3225 fps. Winchester .243 brass, I have retired brass with over 20 firings. Dropped the charge a bit and shrunk my 1000 yard groups by just over 2". Last weekend when I was at Core Shooting range in the Black Forest , while checking my 100 yard zero. 3 shots in prone, coldbore and 2 others back to back almost one hole, a very tight ragged hole. This is the norm for this Krieger barrel, 4200 rounds down the barrel. I know we are not talking about the 6CM here. Between the Creed and the SLR I would choose the SLR, 26-28 inch barrel with a 105 and run it in the 3200 area. There are shooters that have done it, bunch of posted info out there on it. Talk to Whitley about it.

I've also thought about the 6mm Comp Match round... The use of H1000 sounds appealing to me, so much that I started to buy a 8lb jug the other day to set on!!

 

[Dgd6mm]

I am going to shoot the December shoot, just a novice at this PRS stuff, but having a blast and meeting other shooters that can run a gun. James Vick shot a 6CM for a while and now shoots a Creedmoore. He hammered with it last weekend and finished 3rd.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I am going to shoot the December shoot, just a novice at this PRS stuff, but having a blast and meeting other shooters that can run a gun. James Vick shot a 6CM for a while and now shoots a Creedmoore. He hammered with it last weekend and finished 3rd.

They all shoot Creedmoors now a days!! That or the 6x47Lapua with a .100 freebore seems to be the winner!! I may start signing up for the local match they hold every month or two for some added practice.. I try to save my money for the large matches because the price tables are very nice plus sponsers prefer shooters in as many large matches as possible.. To gain my sponsors I need more large matches.. I just started competing so don't be scared to sign up to shoot! The advantage one has by shooting in smaller matches first although is to work any bugs out of their equipment.. I placed way down in the pack on my first few matches due to feeding problems I was having but that was the only reason... I shot with the Team AI guys one match and they even said that "feeding" issues was the only thing holding me back, because I hit everytime I squeezed the trigger!!! I discovered later the guy who chambered my barrel didn't chamfer the chamber end for smooth feeding.. That was just stupid of him and cost me!!! I learned that lesson and will be sure a Smith does work for "Me" next time not like "He" wants!! To be honest though, I don't understand why anyone would want a chamber unchamfered anyhow?? Hell, I was eating my brass to bits working/cycling it!! I have my own local gunsmith/machine shop now though so now it's time to pick up them points!!! LOL!! I love it!

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I don't think either of those cases have enough boiler room. For 3200+ you need to look at the 6CM (Competition Match) or the 243 Ackley. And a long barrel will be a big help.

My first 6CM (Competition Match) 27" 115 DTAC, H1000, 3225 fps. Winchester .243 brass, I have retired brass with over 20 firings. Dropped the charge a bit and shrunk my 1000 yard groups by just over 2". Last weekend when I was at Core Shooting range in the Black Forest , while checking my 100 yard zero. 3 shots in prone, coldbore and 2 others back to back almost one hole, a very tight ragged hole. This is the norm for this Krieger barrel, 4200 rounds down the barrel. I know we are not talking about the 6CM here. Between the Creed and the SLR I would choose the SLR, 26-28 inch barrel with a 105 and run it in the 3200 area. There are shooters that have done it, bunch of posted info out there on it. Talk to Whitley about it.

Have you heard or noticed any difference in the Kreiger barrel vs Bartlein??? Steel, break end period, speed... I'm looking for a Bartlein 6mm .237 bore, 1-7.5 twist.. But, seems like everyone keeps the 1-7.5 twist bought up in Bartlein and even the .237 bore... I don't want a .236 bore if it's going to cause higher pressure signs in my brass before I reach my true limit or next node..

 

[SHootSTraight22]

If anyone else is interested in this 3,200fps node experiment with 105gr I can supply some sized down Palma brass and components if we can find someone with a 6Creedmoor and 6mmSLR... Maybe Whitley would be interested as well??? I don't have any hybrids right now and I think most are sold out, I'll call and talk to Berger about their next batch..

 

[MOShooter]

I don't think you can form the 6SLR from Lapua brass with out getting a doughnut that needs to be turned out. Also not sure if the small primer with light the amount of slow burning powder needed to get the speed you want. If you want speed might as well plan on your brass not lasting long or your barrel. It's the price you pay for speed.

Scott

I see what you trying to say but just feel you "may" be wrong on this one.. As for the slow burning powder issue that reminds me of a write up I read once. A guy was shooting H1000 or some slow burning something aqnd accuracy sucked.. The guy switched up primers to a hotter burn like a true mag primer (TulaAmmoKVB223M, some say Rem 6.5 or 7.5 are) and accuracy came around.. It makes scents to match components and I feel most do not!! What I wanted to try with all this we're talking about is: 6mm SLR or 6mmCreedmoore, formed from Lapua Palma brass, using H4350 or even Varget (varget load may require coated bullets to drop pressure), also using hotter primers or the best I have excess to (S&B, Wolf, TulaAmmo same as wolf, Fed, CCI, and Rem 6.5..) The hotter primers will help with burn if test show I need it but I feel H4350 below 51gr should be fine.. This will be shot in a long freebore plus .237 bore which both will drop pressure some to help me work up to my target.. I could even have my lands cut to a certain degree to ease on set of peak pressure (if possible.) Hell, someone here throw this all into "QuickLoad" and see what happens!! Please! Because I know if a 6x47Lapua can run all day long at 3,150fps then the Palma case 6mmSLR should have no problem running 3,230fps... Your right that Lapua brass will have to be turned but I'm hoping Lee Collet dies will help decrease the amount by pressing instead of pushing the brass back??? Any experience out there with Lee Collet's??? Also by no means anybody think I'm attacking their responds, I'm not.. I really appreiciate the dialog! This is something I really want to see done (find and shoot a 6mm in tac comps at 3,230 fps node..) Any help if someone has a 6SLR or 6mmCreedmoore would help?? I would help you in anyway I could to study this... All in all, I'm just looking for the ability to shoot a 6mm in a 3,200-3,230fps node not unlike the 3,100-3,150fps node everyone seems to be using... I figured Palma brass would be the ticket to gain this extra pressure sents it performs so well when used/converted into other rounds.. Any help here would be appreciated...

This from David Tubbs, "A detailed study of large and small rifle primers showed that large rifle primers worked best when the propellant charge exceeds 35 grains as is the case with the 6XC." This is what I based my comment on. Do I think 3250 is attainable from a 6slr, yes. I've gotten to 3156 with a 24" tube using RL26 and hornady brass. Put on a 30" tube and coat your bullets and you might get 3300. I just know with mine slower powders get me better velocity. I'm just skeptical that a 450 will light the amount of powder to reach the velocity you want. But hey trying is half the fun. Good luck.

Scott

 

[MOShooter]

Is it not the norm to have 3100-3150fps limit on tac comps. I know ours in MO are 3100.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I don't think you can form the 6SLR from Lapua brass with out getting a doughnut that needs to be turned out. Also not sure if the small primer with light the amount of slow burning powder needed to get the speed you want. If you want speed might as well plan on your brass not lasting long or your barrel. It's the price you pay for speed.

Scott

I see what you trying to say but just feel you "may" be wrong on this one.. As for the slow burning powder issue that reminds me of a write up I read once. A guy was shooting H1000 or some slow burning something aqnd accuracy sucked.. The guy switched up primers to a hotter burn like a true mag primer (TulaAmmoKVB223M, some say Rem 6.5 or 7.5 are) and accuracy came around.. It makes scents to match components and I feel most do not!! What I wanted to try with all this we're talking about is: 6mm SLR or 6mmCreedmoore, formed from Lapua Palma brass, using H4350 or even Varget (varget load may require coated bullets to drop pressure), also using hotter primers or the best I have excess to (S&B, Wolf, TulaAmmo same as wolf, Fed, CCI, and Rem 6.5..) The hotter primers will help with burn if test show I need it but I feel H4350 below 51gr should be fine.. This will be shot in a long freebore plus .237 bore which both will drop pressure some to help me work up to my target.. I could even have my lands cut to a certain degree to ease on set of peak pressure (if possible.) Hell, someone here throw this all into "QuickLoad" and see what happens!! Please! Because I know if a 6x47Lapua can run all day long at 3,150fps then the Palma case 6mmSLR should have no problem running 3,230fps... Your right that Lapua brass will have to be turned but I'm hoping Lee Collet dies will help decrease the amount by pressing instead of pushing the brass back??? Any experience out there with Lee Collet's??? Also by no means anybody think I'm attacking their responds, I'm not.. I really appreiciate the dialog! This is something I really want to see done (find and shoot a 6mm in tac comps at 3,230 fps node..) Any help if someone has a 6SLR or 6mmCreedmoore would help?? I would help you in anyway I could to study this... All in all, I'm just looking for the ability to shoot a 6mm in a 3,200-3,230fps node not unlike the 3,100-3,150fps node everyone seems to be using... I figured Palma brass would be the ticket to gain this extra pressure sents it performs so well when used/converted into other rounds.. Any help here would be appreciated...

This from David Tubbs, "A detailed study of large and small rifle primers showed that large rifle primers worked best when the propellant charge exceeds 35 grains as is the case with the 6XC." This is what I based my comment on. Do I think 3250 is attainable from a 6slr, yes. I've gotten to 3156 with a 24" tube using RL26 and hornady brass. Put on a 30" tube and coat your bullets and you might get 3300. I just know with mine slower powders get me better velocity. I'm just skeptical that a 450 will light the amount of powder to reach the velocity you want. But hey trying is half the fun. Good luck.

Scott

I'm familiar with that study but I feel that ignition issues could be overcome (if they happen) with a "true" mag primer like KVB223M... I haven't seen one study or research done with this primer and it's advertized to be the hottest in the TulaAmmo/Wolf small rifle line... I've read that CCI450's and other popular mag. primers aren't truly mag primers just harder cups... I saw somewhere where a person was having problems with groups using something similiar to a 6x47Lapua.. You also here others claiming this cartridge suffers from load pickiness issues.. Well, after reading what the guy did to solve his problem in his particular cartridge (he tried a truly hotter primer) and seeing his research on the subject(he had a bunch of es/sd readings showing the differences with standard vs hot) I descided that maybe the problem people are having with the 6x47Lapua... That maybe the exact reason folks say try out the Rem 6.5 primers because of the huge flame... Some say that huge flame really tightens theri groups with small primers/slow powder combos... I just figured I would make up some 6mm Creed or 6 SLR cases from Palma 308 brass and pop a KVB223M/or Rem 6.5 primer behind it loaded with H4350 and see what happens.. I've received a lot of private messages regarding this subject sents I started it and it seems others are also interested in shooting a 105gr Hybrid in around 3,230 area.. If an efficient case is used like the Palma case then most likely less powder would be needed to achieve the same speed as larger cartridges, which equals longer barrel life... What got me thinking about this is when I ran the numbers on Applied Balllistics and saw what it would take to increase the "hit percentage" at 1,200yds... It would take a 6.5mm 140gr moving at 2,950fps to do the same thing but the down side would be recoil/spoting one's shots... But to be honest when I'm shooting a match I never spot for myself unless I'm plain out messing and need correction... So a 6.5SLR or 6.5Ackley Improved maybe interesting at 3,000fps in Palma brass as well.. I just have never tried a 6mm and figured the less recoil may help a lot... Who knows though, maybe the easier to spot impacts for the match crew might make any difference gained from a slick shooting 6mm???

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I don't think you can form the 6SLR from Lapua brass with out getting a doughnut that needs to be turned out. Also not sure if the small primer with light the amount of slow burning powder needed to get the speed you want. If you want speed might as well plan on your brass not lasting long or your barrel. It's the price you pay for speed.

Scott

I see what you trying to say but just feel you "may" be wrong on this one.. As for the slow burning powder issue that reminds me of a write up I read once. A guy was shooting H1000 or some slow burning something aqnd accuracy sucked.. The guy switched up primers to a hotter burn like a true mag primer (TulaAmmoKVB223M, some say Rem 6.5 or 7.5 are) and accuracy came around.. It makes scents to match components and I feel most do not!! What I wanted to try with all this we're talking about is: 6mm SLR or 6mmCreedmoore, formed from Lapua Palma brass, using H4350 or even Varget (varget load may require coated bullets to drop pressure), also using hotter primers or the best I have excess to (S&B, Wolf, TulaAmmo same as wolf, Fed, CCI, and Rem 6.5..) The hotter primers will help with burn if test show I need it but I feel H4350 below 51gr should be fine.. This will be shot in a long freebore plus .237 bore which both will drop pressure some to help me work up to my target.. I could even have my lands cut to a certain degree to ease on set of peak pressure (if possible.) Hell, someone here throw this all into "QuickLoad" and see what happens!! Please! Because I know if a 6x47Lapua can run all day long at 3,150fps then the Palma case 6mmSLR should have no problem running 3,230fps... Your right that Lapua brass will have to be turned but I'm hoping Lee Collet dies will help decrease the amount by pressing instead of pushing the brass back??? Any experience out there with Lee Collet's??? Also by no means anybody think I'm attacking their responds, I'm not.. I really appreiciate the dialog! This is something I really want to see done (find and shoot a 6mm in tac comps at 3,230 fps node..) Any help if someone has a 6SLR or 6mmCreedmoore would help?? I would help you in anyway I could to study this... All in all, I'm just looking for the ability to shoot a 6mm in a 3,200-3,230fps node not unlike the 3,100-3,150fps node everyone seems to be using... I figured Palma brass would be the ticket to gain this extra pressure sents it performs so well when used/converted into other rounds.. Any help here would be appreciated...

This from David Tubbs, "A detailed study of large and small rifle primers showed that large rifle primers worked best when the propellant charge exceeds 35 grains as is the case with the 6XC." This is what I based my comment on. Do I think 3250 is attainable from a 6slr, yes. I've gotten to 3156 with a 24" tube using RL26 and hornady brass. Put on a 30" tube and coat your bullets and you might get 3300. I just know with mine slower powders get me better velocity. I'm just skeptical that a 450 will light the amount of powder to reach the velocity you want. But hey trying is half the fun. Good luck.

Scott

I'm familiar with that study but I feel that ignition issues could be overcome (if they happen) with a "true" mag primer like KVB223M... I haven't seen one study or research done with this primer and it's advertized to be the hottest in the TulaAmmo/Wolf small rifle line... I've read that CCI450's and other popular mag. primers aren't truly mag primers just harder cups... I saw somewhere where a person was having problems with groups using something similiar to a 6x47Lapua.. You also here others claiming this cartridge suffers from load pickiness issues.. Well, after reading what the guy did to solve his problem in his particular cartridge (he tried a truly hotter primer) and seeing his research on the subject(he had a bunch of es/sd readings showing the differences with standard vs hot) I descided that maybe the problem people are having with the 6x47Lapua stems from ignition and some kind og bore/case/powder ratio... That maybe the exact reason folks say try out the Rem 6.5 primers because of the huge flame is tighen their group in and whatever their shooting needs that hotter flame... Some say that huge flame really tightens there groups with small primers/slow powder combos... I just figured I would make up some 6mm Creed or 6 SLR cases from Palma 308 brass and pop a KVB223M/or Rem 6.5 primer behind it loaded with H4350 and see what happens.. I've received a lot of private messages regarding this subject sents I started it and it seems others are also interested in shooting a 105gr Hybrid in around 3,230 area.. If an efficient case is used like the Palma case then most likely less powder would be needed to achieve the same speed as larger cartridges, which equals longer barrel life... What got me thinking about this is when I ran the numbers on Applied Balllistics and saw what it would take to increase the "hit percentage" at 1,200yds... It would take a 6.5mm 140gr moving at 2,950fps to do the same thing but the down side would be recoil/spoting one's shots... But to be honest when I'm shooting a match I never spot for myself unless I'm plain out missing and need correction... So a 6.5SLR or 6.5Ackley Improved maybe interesting at 3,000fps in Palma brass as well.. I just have never tried a 6mm and figured the less recoil may help a lot... Who knows though, maybe the easier to spot impacts for the match crew using a 6.5 might make up any difference gained from a slick shooting 6mm???

 

[SHootSTraight22]

What started me thinking about all this is when playing with that ballistic program and trying to see how to increase my hit percentage number at 1,200yds.. Then I noticed how flat shooting it would be compared to my 6.5Lapua... What would increase my scores would be for me to stop dailing for zero so that flat shooting 6mm at 3,200 plus would help alot... Run the numbers over at Applied Ballistics..

 

[MOShooter]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Like is said the matches here have a 3100 limit so it's a nonissue for me. I am thinking about going to a 6.5slr because I think I could run the 140's at 2900+ and gain some over the 105 at 3100. Your barrel life will be very short running it that hot. I've got about 1000 on 6slr and I am having some accuracy trouble. So not sure if my barrel is about done or my load feel out of tune.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. Like is said the matches here have a 3100 limit so it's a nonissue for me. I am thinking about going to a 6.5slr because I think I could run the 140's at 2900+ and gain some over the 105 at 3100. Your barrel life will be very short running it that hot. I've got about 1000 on 6slr and I am having some accuracy trouble. So not sure if my barrel is about done or my load feel out of tune.

How much has your throat moved forward?? If you can get a 6.5 140gr hybrid to 2,950fps you will have a notable advantage far out over others..

 

[MOShooter]

I'm not exactly sure. My neck is too tight for the hornady modified case. I've been running at about .050 less than mag length which was not to the lands, 120 freebore I believe was too much. I'm just basing that my load consistently shot 1/4" or better and lately is more like 3/4". I did have a barrel speed up so I'm in the process of trying to retune my load. I just ordered a nother barrel to be safe. I'm going to stick with the 6 for now since I have enough supplies to shoot the next barrel out too. You should pick up some RL 26 that stuff was 150-200fps faster than H4831 and H1000 for me.

Scott

 

[Park ranger]

Just out of curiosity, how good of a wind reader are you? I'm image very very good! This all seems like a lot of work to be off a wind call 3 or 4 mph.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I'm not exactly sure. My neck is too tight for the hornady modified case. I've been running at about .050 less than mag length which was not to the lands, 120 freebore I believe was too much. I'm just basing that my load consistently shot 1/4" or better and lately is more like 3/4". I did have a barrel speed up so I'm in the process of trying to retune my load. I just ordered a nother barrel to be safe. I'm going to stick with the 6 for now since I have enough supplies to shoot the next barrel out too. You should pick up some RL 26 that stuff was 150-200fps faster than H4831 and H1000 for me.

Scott

Just make up a unloaded case with a bullet set into the neck.. Ease it into the chamber and close the bolt.. Then ease it back out and measure your length, do that 5 times or so.. Then you can keep up with freebore..

 

[MOShooter]

I tried that. I got about a .020 spread in the 6 that I tried. The shortest was about .030 longer than my max mag OAL. That's why I believe .120 freebore is too much. I think I'm going to send my reamer back and have it shorten to .080. I'm going to have my smith make me a modified case from old brass when I take it in for my rebarrel.

Scott

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I tried that. I got about a .020 spread in the 6 that I tried. The shortest was about .030 longer than my max mag OAL. That's why I believe .120 freebore is too much. I think I'm going to send my reamer back and have it shorten to .080. I'm going to have my smith make me a modified case from old brass when I take it in for my rebarrel.

Scott

If your saying out of six cases you got that much variance in OAL then you have a very dirty throat or black ring.. I suggest polishing your throat area out slowly then run a few passes length way 3-4 times.. Then repeat.. Do this with a bore polish like KG2 or something light.. Only other thing it could be is your neck isn't holding onto the bullet all the way as you pull it out..

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I'm not exactly sure. My neck is too tight for the hornady modified case. I've been running at about .050 less than mag length which was not to the lands, 120 freebore I believe was too much. I'm just basing that my load consistently shot 1/4" or better and lately is more like 3/4". I did have a barrel speed up so I'm in the process of trying to retune my load. I just ordered a nother barrel to be safe. I'm going to stick with the 6 for now since I have enough supplies to shoot the next barrel out too. You should pick up some RL 26 that stuff was 150-200fps faster than H4831 and H1000 for me.

Scott

The info I have written down for the 6XC is .148FB or .120FB.. I think you should be okay as long as you got a good barrel.. Tell me some specs and round count about your barrel.. I may can help you tune it up..

 

[MOShooter]

Bartlien 5r med Palma .237. Round count is 900-1000. I just recently went at it with JB's on a couple of different occasions. Again I haven't been too concerned with where the lands are because I can't reach them and still mag feed. I've had a 50fps speed up so I backed down 3/10 and going to do some depth test today. I'm going to have to do a quick fix as I have my last match of the year on Saturday and today is my only range time. After this I'm going to burn up the 500 hornady 105 I bought practining my positional shoot over the winter and start with a fresh Hawk Hill next year.