Jason Boersma
Silver $$ Contributor
I use Redding comp dies for my 6.5x47L improved case, they work really good. I use .220 freebore with the 140's, it works great.
6mm BR vs 6.5x47?
- Thread starter mattri
- Start date
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
tclaunch said:
I don't think you need an improved 47 for 140's. Many of us have been shooting the heavies for a long time with good results.
I wasn't being too tongue in cheek as an 'improved' '47 would take the case water capacity from ~49gn to 51.5-52gn, and with 260/6.5 Creedmoor both in the 53-54gn bracket, you'd be in nearly the same place as this pair. Certainly so close as to mean that it'd be unlikely to be worth the cost of a custom finishing reamer and dies for an 'improved' '47L. Reform your 260 / Creedmoor brass out of Lapua 'Palma' 308 Win and you get the small primer ignition, small flash-hole, strong case-head (and therefore no reason why you couldn't run this nominally 60,000 psi pair at the '47L's CIP 63,000 psi MAP without losing any sleep.
So far as comparisons between the three 6.5s are concerned, that's the classic 'six of one, half dozen of the other' as we say in the UK (something about Chevies and Fords on the west side of the Atlantic?). It's as much about rifle and shooting disipline / application as their respective merits.
On the face of it, the 260 should be in the weakest position of the trio with its two-inch and a little bit case length and 2.800" COAL forcing overly deep bullet seating for 140gn class bullets, unless it's a single loading job or long repeater action allowing 3-inch or so COALs. The slightly shorter, fatter cased Creedmoor was designed to ameliorate if not fully overcome this issue for Tactical/Sniper and XTC 'Match Rifle' competitors. However, after a slow start to its life, the 260 is apparently now entrenched, seems to be retaining its popularity, and apparently still attract new users too. It has the best brass and factory ammo choice, availability, and prices which helps.
I suspect 6.5 Hornady Creedmoor will in 15 years time be where 260 is now with nearly all US cartridge and rifle manufacturers turning out brass, ammo, and chambering the cartridge in a part of their rifle line-ups. Whether that means that the 260 will ultimately lose out, we'll have to see. (Interesting that Savage offers the Model 12 Long Range Precision in 243 Win, 260 Rem, and 6.5 Creedmoor only.) It'll also be interesting to see if they separately, or in combination, dent 308 Win's role as the multi-purpose working and target cartridge - it'll probably need law enforement users to switch to achieve that.
Note, no mention of the '47L in all this. It's not mainstream because no US manufacturer produces brass for it, let alone factory ammo. It's the little brother to that other super successful match number, 6.5-284 Norma, although the latter has a few US made options entirely from Hornady I believe. Try and find a factory rifle in them and you'll struggle (likewise, the 'straight 284'), but go to a club F-Class match and this two 6.5s and seven trio likely make up over half of the F-Open entry.
So, we're very much into custom rifles often built for one discipline, sometimes used in two or more, or at the least a rebarrelled factory job. When faced by which one, what does the '47L offer that's unique or better? The small primer / small flash-hole high-quality brass for a start. (Sure, you can re-form and neck-turn 308 Palma cases for the other two, but you've got to pretty keen - some would say lead a 'sad life' - to get into this game when you have an off the shelf alternative!)
The small primer set-up isn't 100% sweetness and roses though. Rebarrel some factory rifles to the '47L and primers pierce long before max loads and pressures are used / achieved unless the bolt is bushed and the firing pin matched. (I had that with my first attempt to get a rifle for the cartridge, a rebarrelled 308 Win FN Special Police Rifle. Great idea, simply didn't work in practice, but it now does with a simple re-chamber to .260 Rem.) I have one rifle in each of the three, but couldn't say if any one is better or worse overall bearing in mind the three rifles have different specifications and components. If I were starting today and had to decide on the specification and cartridge choice for a single rifle to be used for short to mid-range F-Class chambered for one of the three, I'd almost certainly go the '47L. It probably just has that bit of edge in this discipline, it's usually very easy to make it work well, the brass is both good and readily available, and lasts a long time making up for its relatively high initial cost. If I were having a tactical rifle built, it'd be a harder choice as all three will do this job so well. I suspect it'd come down to non ballistic, non-precision factors such as brass loss during matches and how many hundreds of cases (thousands?) you need on hand if you're really serious about the discipline.
Sticking to the '47L, that takes us onto throating options and the 'best freebore'. I know people who are delighted they went with a short or shortish freebore and shoot 123s or 130s all the time. I know a least a couple of guys whose first barrel was throated for 140s and who have gone shorter second time round because the 123 Scenar does everything they want to do so well. (And, these same people are raving about the new 120gn Scenar-L, saying it's an even better choice!) I don't know anybody over here who is going the other way and have the chamber re-throated 'out a bit' or rebarrelling with a longer freebore version, but I read what Erik says about his experiences and those of other top US F-Class competitors, and don't disbelieve any of it.
I will say that having used the 123gn Scenar at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in the European F-Class Championship meeting at Bisley a couple of months back, I was disappointed with the way the prevailing wind conditions (which were injecting randon elevation effects usually low) affected my bullets more than other people's at the two longer distances, the first time I'd used the combination beyond 800. (Due to a squadding error, I shot all 6 matches with the FTR crowd, so we're talking about a comparison with the 308 Win, not the 7mm WSMs and SAUMs in 'my' class). On one occasion, I got a low 6 o'clock 3 at 1,000, really low barely above the ring line (equivalent US, an 8 .... 1.3, maybe 1.4-MOA drop). Every other target around also displayed low shots at 6 o'clock, but the 308 shooters dropped a single point only, and the effect was maybe three-quarters MOA, or considerably less than I'd suffered.
I think now I'd go for the longer freebore and shoot 140s if I were to use the cartridge for longer distances than 600 yards. However ..... I'd likely go for a seven as first choice if I were shooting more than a very occasional match at 800 and beyond with it anyway. It might not be a particularly large and expensive to feed seven either. I have a 308 FTR rifle that goes to the gunsmith in two days time to metamorphise into a 7-08mm throated for the 168gn Berger VLD. It'll be interesting to see how this bullet at 2,750 - 2,800 fps MV compares to the 6.5s whether 123 or 140gn. On paper, the 140gn 6.5mm Berger Hybrid at 2,850 retains a small external ballistics edge at 1,000 yards over the 168gn Berger VLD at 2,800 fps, but I don't intend to use either cartridge at this distance anyway.
Moreover, I've been in this game long enough to know that external ballistics programs tell you 90% + of the story, but there's all too often the real life twist in the tail that makes some combination work significantly better than it ought .... or significantly worse. As Erik very pertinently points out though - to take us back to the OP's question - that whilst any of the three smaller 6.5s and the 7mm-08 are so close ballistically when loaded to fast but sensible levels, the 6BR is a good ballistic step lower, so that the inevitable wind induced losses will outweigh its fantastic precision in the slowfire, marked target discipline. The 6mm 105gn Hybrid needs 3,050 fps MV to get within shouting distance of the others, and 3,100 fps to match them (on paper anyway).
I'll now stand back and await the posts that inform me that so & so's Sooper-Dasher gets 105s to 3,200 fps.
I'll also announce the heresy (to some anyway) that my custom 7-08 uses a Savage PTA action. Erik will now either figuratively blow me out of the metaphorical water as a double-apostate who ought to be stoned to death, or .... more likely ..... chuckle and tell me that I've NO CHANCE having miscalled not one but two key decisions.
So far as comparisons between the three 6.5s are concerned, that's the classic 'six of one, half dozen of the other' as we say in the UK (something about Chevies and Fords on the west side of the Atlantic?). It's as much about rifle and shooting disipline / application as their respective merits.
On the face of it, the 260 should be in the weakest position of the trio with its two-inch and a little bit case length and 2.800" COAL forcing overly deep bullet seating for 140gn class bullets, unless it's a single loading job or long repeater action allowing 3-inch or so COALs. The slightly shorter, fatter cased Creedmoor was designed to ameliorate if not fully overcome this issue for Tactical/Sniper and XTC 'Match Rifle' competitors. However, after a slow start to its life, the 260 is apparently now entrenched, seems to be retaining its popularity, and apparently still attract new users too. It has the best brass and factory ammo choice, availability, and prices which helps.
I suspect 6.5 Hornady Creedmoor will in 15 years time be where 260 is now with nearly all US cartridge and rifle manufacturers turning out brass, ammo, and chambering the cartridge in a part of their rifle line-ups. Whether that means that the 260 will ultimately lose out, we'll have to see. (Interesting that Savage offers the Model 12 Long Range Precision in 243 Win, 260 Rem, and 6.5 Creedmoor only.) It'll also be interesting to see if they separately, or in combination, dent 308 Win's role as the multi-purpose working and target cartridge - it'll probably need law enforement users to switch to achieve that.
Note, no mention of the '47L in all this. It's not mainstream because no US manufacturer produces brass for it, let alone factory ammo. It's the little brother to that other super successful match number, 6.5-284 Norma, although the latter has a few US made options entirely from Hornady I believe. Try and find a factory rifle in them and you'll struggle (likewise, the 'straight 284'), but go to a club F-Class match and this two 6.5s and seven trio likely make up over half of the F-Open entry.
So, we're very much into custom rifles often built for one discipline, sometimes used in two or more, or at the least a rebarrelled factory job. When faced by which one, what does the '47L offer that's unique or better? The small primer / small flash-hole high-quality brass for a start. (Sure, you can re-form and neck-turn 308 Palma cases for the other two, but you've got to pretty keen - some would say lead a 'sad life' - to get into this game when you have an off the shelf alternative!)
The small primer set-up isn't 100% sweetness and roses though. Rebarrel some factory rifles to the '47L and primers pierce long before max loads and pressures are used / achieved unless the bolt is bushed and the firing pin matched. (I had that with my first attempt to get a rifle for the cartridge, a rebarrelled 308 Win FN Special Police Rifle. Great idea, simply didn't work in practice, but it now does with a simple re-chamber to .260 Rem.) I have one rifle in each of the three, but couldn't say if any one is better or worse overall bearing in mind the three rifles have different specifications and components. If I were starting today and had to decide on the specification and cartridge choice for a single rifle to be used for short to mid-range F-Class chambered for one of the three, I'd almost certainly go the '47L. It probably just has that bit of edge in this discipline, it's usually very easy to make it work well, the brass is both good and readily available, and lasts a long time making up for its relatively high initial cost. If I were having a tactical rifle built, it'd be a harder choice as all three will do this job so well. I suspect it'd come down to non ballistic, non-precision factors such as brass loss during matches and how many hundreds of cases (thousands?) you need on hand if you're really serious about the discipline.
Sticking to the '47L, that takes us onto throating options and the 'best freebore'. I know people who are delighted they went with a short or shortish freebore and shoot 123s or 130s all the time. I know a least a couple of guys whose first barrel was throated for 140s and who have gone shorter second time round because the 123 Scenar does everything they want to do so well. (And, these same people are raving about the new 120gn Scenar-L, saying it's an even better choice!) I don't know anybody over here who is going the other way and have the chamber re-throated 'out a bit' or rebarrelling with a longer freebore version, but I read what Erik says about his experiences and those of other top US F-Class competitors, and don't disbelieve any of it.
I will say that having used the 123gn Scenar at 800, 900 and 1,000 yards in the European F-Class Championship meeting at Bisley a couple of months back, I was disappointed with the way the prevailing wind conditions (which were injecting randon elevation effects usually low) affected my bullets more than other people's at the two longer distances, the first time I'd used the combination beyond 800. (Due to a squadding error, I shot all 6 matches with the FTR crowd, so we're talking about a comparison with the 308 Win, not the 7mm WSMs and SAUMs in 'my' class). On one occasion, I got a low 6 o'clock 3 at 1,000, really low barely above the ring line (equivalent US, an 8 .... 1.3, maybe 1.4-MOA drop). Every other target around also displayed low shots at 6 o'clock, but the 308 shooters dropped a single point only, and the effect was maybe three-quarters MOA, or considerably less than I'd suffered.
I think now I'd go for the longer freebore and shoot 140s if I were to use the cartridge for longer distances than 600 yards. However ..... I'd likely go for a seven as first choice if I were shooting more than a very occasional match at 800 and beyond with it anyway. It might not be a particularly large and expensive to feed seven either. I have a 308 FTR rifle that goes to the gunsmith in two days time to metamorphise into a 7-08mm throated for the 168gn Berger VLD. It'll be interesting to see how this bullet at 2,750 - 2,800 fps MV compares to the 6.5s whether 123 or 140gn. On paper, the 140gn 6.5mm Berger Hybrid at 2,850 retains a small external ballistics edge at 1,000 yards over the 168gn Berger VLD at 2,800 fps, but I don't intend to use either cartridge at this distance anyway.
Moreover, I've been in this game long enough to know that external ballistics programs tell you 90% + of the story, but there's all too often the real life twist in the tail that makes some combination work significantly better than it ought .... or significantly worse. As Erik very pertinently points out though - to take us back to the OP's question - that whilst any of the three smaller 6.5s and the 7mm-08 are so close ballistically when loaded to fast but sensible levels, the 6BR is a good ballistic step lower, so that the inevitable wind induced losses will outweigh its fantastic precision in the slowfire, marked target discipline. The 6mm 105gn Hybrid needs 3,050 fps MV to get within shouting distance of the others, and 3,100 fps to match them (on paper anyway).
I'll now stand back and await the posts that inform me that so & so's Sooper-Dasher gets 105s to 3,200 fps.
I'll also announce the heresy (to some anyway) that my custom 7-08 uses a Savage PTA action. Erik will now either figuratively blow me out of the metaphorical water as a double-apostate who ought to be stoned to death, or .... more likely ..... chuckle and tell me that I've NO CHANCE having miscalled not one but two key decisions.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
mattri said:Now don't go ragging on Savages, like Laurie said that's Erik's job
It's not my "job" to tell the truth, other can as well!
johara1 said:
You mean that would be a high, if not super-high, level for the first part of your post Jim? ??? ???
For the second part, it's a 7mm Shehane and 180s for 900/1,000. But as one of the GB League F-Open aficionados said to me at the end of last season: "Nice cartridge, but don't expect it to be competitive at this level!" (Not that I have any expectations or aspirations to achieve that. Still the 284 and Shehane can frighten the Wuzzim shooters in maybe half of the match conditions we see in our league rounds.)
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
mattri said:True- but they don't seem to enjoy it as much as you do
How would a .167" freeborn work for the 120-140s?
It would work very good. Mine is a .175" freebore and we have loaded down to 100 gr. bullets for hunting.
Are you using a 1:8 twist for the 140's in the 6.5X47? Will a 1:8.5 stabilize the hybrids? This is a great thread! Thank You Laurie, Jim, Erik & others.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
BOB LEE SWAGGER said:
I'm using 1:8" twist but your 1:8.5" will work well with the 140's.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
mattri said:
I get 3,000 fps. with 123 gr. AMAX out of a 25" barrel.
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