6mm br vs 6.5x47 at 600yds+

[favload]

I have been wanting a 6.5x47L for over a year now but can't justify replacing my 6br unless i know it will out shoot it at 600-1000yds. No one down my way owns one so my only experience has been here. I shoot a savage target action with a cusom barrel. The gun will group very well (under .5moa out to 600) and I am very proud of its results but its getting old to me and I'm looking for something new. So, in short, is it worth going to the new round? If I put good parts in will i see a positive result? I really dont want to mess with case forming one of the 6mm wildcats for +/- 3grs of powder. I have also been looking into the 6.5x55 but know little about it.
thanks

 

[MarkS]

favload.

Look at the match results. Very few will out shoot the 6BR. If you want something new go with a 6BRX or 6 Dasher.

Mark Schronce

 

[cmillard]

+1 for the improved 6BRs. i still like the idea of the 6BR-dx the best. check it out in the guns of the week archive--i can't remember which week it is though. it has less body taper then the Dasher and a longer neck than the dasher. just load a 6BR in the DX chamber and shoot. you now have fireformed brass. you may have to turn necks--depending on what you spec for the chamber. but you don't have to mess with the false shoulder and that stuff. you get great velocity and great brass life with that round--from what i've read anyhow. after i use up my 6BR krieger, i will chamber a new barrel for this round

 

[flatlander]

I've been trying to do some shooting with a couple of 6.5x47s (a 30" bbl. on a BAT 3L & 28" on a Pierce TG in a RTS tubegun), but the weather this winter hasn't been very cooperative. What I've found so far is that it's going to be somewhat difficult to push either the B130VLD or any of the 139-142gr. bullets fast enough out of the little 6.5 to beat my BR or Dashers by much at either 600 or 1000.

I'll qualify this comment by telling you that I've been able to get 2900fps out of Berger 140 LR BT & VLDs with RL17, but accuracy wasn't as good as it had been at 2800fps, and casehead appearance would indicate that those 2900fps loads were a little hotter than I'd want to run. Further, the weather has kept me from doing anything more than basic chrono & group work off the bench at 600, so very little experimenting with seating depth & different primers has been accomplished to this point.

In spite of the above comments, I like the little 6.5x47 - it's nearly as efficient as the BR, the brass quality is typical Lapua (excellent), recoil is light, and there's a wide variety of good medium & LR bullets available. I was trying to find a load or loads for 1000yds. before leaving for Phoenix to shoot the SW LR Nationals back in Feb., but lack of time & decent weather forced me to pull the 6.5 bbl. and go back to the 6x47L bbl. I'd been shooting on that rifle. It's not like that was a step backwards - the 6x47 is excellent with DTAC 115s at 1000, and is in fact my personal benchmark against which the 6.5x47 will be compared. The RTS tubegun in 6.5x47 is going to see use in across the course HP matches this spring, so I'll get more experience with the cartridge before long.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Go with the 6.5 x 47, you won't regret it!

-Erik

 

[RBD]

Don Nielson is currently kicking 600 yard NBRSA ass with this chambering in the SouthWest, including a couple of new records at Sacramento.

RBD

 

[favload]

Thanks for comments. I was thinking that the higher BC of some of the 6.5 bullets out there would help me in the wind at 600+. I also like the great barrel life the 6.5x47 has to offer. The 6BRX is interesting and so is the Dasher or DX. I'm just wondering if they are that much better than the 6BR for the trouble/cost. Do folks think the extra 100fps makes up for the difference in higher BC bullets? If I could get away with using my current body die and wilson dies that may be a deciding factor.

 

[Laurie]

Thanks for comments. I was thinking that the higher BC of some of the 6.5 bullets out there would help me in the wind at 600+. I also like the great barrel life the 6.5x47 has to offer.

Yes, you're right on there. ASSUMING the 6.5X47L can deliver equivalent accuracy to the 6BR, its higher BC 0.264" dia. bullets will give it an edge in 800-1,000yd F-Class or similar.

Running some sample load combinations through a PC G7-reference standard ballistics program puts the 6.5 significantly ahead in the crucial wind-drift numbers. Using Bryan Litz's average G7 BCs obtained in actual long-range range testing, it looks like this:

6.5X47L 140gn Berger VLD @ 2,750 fps MV = 1,470 fps / 71" wind drift @ 1,000

6BR 105gn Berger VLD @ 2,850 fps MV = 1,380 fps / 81" wind drift @ 1,000

Yes, your 6BR will produce higher MVs and your 6 Dasher more still, but the 6.5 load is also (deliberately) modest, and some people are getting considerably higher velocities still with good accuracy.

However, let's say the 6.5 is pretty well limited to this MV with 140s, but the 6 produces another 100 fps taking the 105 to 2,950. The 6.5X47L still 'wins' at 1,000yd with 71" drift v 77" for the 6BR. The six has got to push a Berger 105gn VLD out at 3,080 fps to match the 6.5 at 71" wind drift (in the 'usual' 10 mph at 3 o'clock that is), which is at or above sensible limits for the 6 Dasher.

But how will a relatively mild 6.5X47L load compare to a Dasher at full stretch, barrel life wise. Very, very well I'd say. Twice the life, easily ............... three times?

So, it all comes back to accuracy. We know the 6BR and its improved versions give outstanding accuracy, including at long ranges. Can the 6.5X47L match that? It appears to be good, but has yet to be proven to be outstanding. I thought the recent bulletin piece on Sam Hall's fantastic 600yd group with the 6.5 had given us the answer in the affirmative ................. see:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/page/3/

and scroll down to March 1st ..................

but Sam Hall says this particular group was a flook as he still usually suffers four shots in a tiny group but one well out spoiling the final result.

So, the jury is still out! Like Cole's rifle, my 6BR is set to become a 6BR-DX on rebarrelling later this year, so that's my vote FWIW.

Laurie,
York, England

PS Cole, David Stripling's / Doug Paschall's BR-DX is Gunweek 60 on the main site

 

[therifler]

Laurie, it would appear that guys are trying to push the 6.5X47 to hard with 140 gr bullets . I myself went down that road with my 6.5 cartridge and really had no success until I started shooting 120 Bt bullets . Now I know that they are making 115gr bullets for the 6br but now i have the advantage of 5grs. slower twist and about 150 fps. and i can always go to 123 or 130's . The Rifler www.therifler.com

 

[Erik Cortina]

My 6.5 x 47 Lapua averages 2925 with RL17 and 139 Scenars with excellent accuracy out of a 28" Krieger. So, it would be really hard for a 6BR or 6BR improved to match that kind of performance.

By the way, I started with a 6BR, then went to a BRX, and when I got tired of fireforming I went to the 6.5 x 47 and never looked back, I have 700 rounds through this barrel and while I have alot of life left over I already ordered another Krieger for it so I can be ready when this one goes.

Inside of 600 there might not be too much difference between the 6.5 and the 6, but if the wind picks up, you will be glad you have a 6.5!

-Erik

 

[favload]

Good article! Do folks think that the 6.5x55 Sweed would seal the deal? Im, not sure about case design but you would think it could push a 6.5 at least 100fps faster than the 47. Possibly much faster yet. With that being said i know littel about it other than brass seems to be available. Is the 6.5x55 a 308BF?

 

[therifler]

Hunter have you shot anything other than RL-17? Do you shoot target or just long range shooting ? What kind of groups down range ? I am hearing alot of good things about Lapua bullets . The Rifler

 

[Erik Cortina]

Hunter have you shot anything other than RL-17? Do you shoot target or just long range shooting ? What kind of groups down range ? I am hearing alot of good things about Lapua bullets . The Rifler

Targets, F-Class to be precise. Haven't tried anything else other than RL-17, but I get 3/4" 10 shot groups at 385 yards. Last 300 yard match I set a new match record with it at Bayou Rifle Club in Houston, TX. I shot a 600-49X, so to say I'm pleased with the cartridge would be an understatement!

I also have a 6.5 x 47 Lapua for hunting, I use 130 gr. Berger VLD's in it and you guessed it, RL-17!

-X3M

 

[Laurie]

Is the 6.5x55 a 308BF

No, .260 Remington is based on the .308W case with a factory COAL of around 2.8" to match short rifle actions and their magazines. The old Swede is markedly longer at a SAAMI length of 3.062", but often loaded considerably longer with 140gn bullets to suit the usual long barrel-throating you find with these rifles, or specified for them in custom jobs. As such, this cartridge needs a longer action than the 6BR / 6.5X47L even in single-shot target rifles.

The 6.5X55mm is a very potent and accurate long-range cartridge in a custom rifle - don't accept loading manual data and MVs as gospel as most are limited to 45,000 psi or so for use in elderly M1894 or M1896 surplus Swedish Mauser military rifles. Many loading manuals also provide MVs based on 18" barrel M1894 cavalry carbines that were sold off in the USA some 30-40 years ago and were very popular as the basis of short hunting rifles.

The factory .260 Rem (also known in custom form as the 6.5-08) is limited by its 2.8" COAL that sees 140gn bullets having to be seated very deeply in the case. In slightly longer form it will still fit custom short tactical actions and magazines such as used in the Surgeon repeating models and has become a favourite with Sniper Competition shooters. Terry Cross, several times USA Sniper Rifle champion has also publicised the Ackley Improved (.260AI) form of the cartridge with less case-body taper and a sharper shoulder angle for another 100-150 fps MV.

(See http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html)

In normal versions, there is not a lot of difference in either performance or accuracy between handloaded 6.5X47L, .260 Rem and the recently introduced 6.5 Hornady Creedmoor. The Lapua cartridge is the most efficient of the trio. Its one potential downside (as with the 6BR and its offshoots) is the use of a small rifle size primer, while the other two use the large size. The small primer is potentially better for accuracy in this size of case, but can be an ablsoute b***er for primer cratering and even piercing at below maximum loads in rifles built around factory actions with fat and none too well fitting firing pins. Anybody building a rifle around the the Remy 700 action is well advised to have Gre-Tan Engineering reduce the firing pin dia. and bush the bolt-face if you want max performance from the BR or Lapua cartridges, but not with 6XC, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5X55mm which all use the larger size primer. You're presumably OK with your Savage action with the 6BR hence 6.5X47L too since this is the best of the factory actions in this regard with a small dia. pin. (I certainly hope I find the same, as I have a couple of long-range .223s in the pipeline, both using the Savage 12 Target action.)

As well as its excellent design, another big 6.5X47L plus is the superb, if expensive, Lapua brass - this also applies to the 6BR of course, and also the 6.5X55mm. .260 Rem doesn't have Swedish or Finnish brass, but can be formed from Lapua or Norma .308W or .243W cases, and 6.5 Creedmoor is limited to Hornady cases.

So, you makes your choices and pays you money, as always! As nearly always too, there are pros and cons amongst the contenders, and there is no single shoo-in!

Laurie

 

[Laurie]

My 6.5 x 47 Lapua averages 2925 with RL17 and 139 Scenars with excellent accuracy out of a 28" Krieger. So, it would be really hard for a 6BR or 6BR improved to match that kind of performance. (X3MHunter)

That's impressive!

As well as a 6BR I have a 6.5X47L (and a .260 Rem Long-Throat too!), but unfortunately it is a rebarrelled FN Special Police Rifle tactical job. Excellent action (Win 70 WSM receiver with a pre-64 type 0.473" face bolt) and a great McMillan A5 stock, now with a fantastic 28" Bartlein 5R barrel on it and an Arnold Jewell match trigger - a marriage apparently made in heaven. Unfortunately, the FN / Winchester action has a really fat, blunt firing pin with clearances set for FBI HRT guys crawling down ditches and getting water and mud everywhere, so the small primers pierce at loads that give MVs 200 fps down on what I know people are getting with Surgeon, BAT and Barnard actions.

As a result, I've not done over much with the rifle and cartridge so far, but will have to have a go in due course and work some loads up that work without too much pressure. Having played around with Re17 in heavy-bullet .308W and finding I can put more and still more powder in the case while the brass and primers show no signs of any pressure at all, this may be the solution I need.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[MarkS]

favload,
It would depend on what type of shooting you are going to do. I if you are going to be shooting Long range benchrest then accuracy is your top prioity, wind drift is second. You fire sighter to get zero, then the record rounds are fire in less than 60 seconds. In something like F-class or high power. Wind drift is as important as accuracy. You fire your sighter, and may take 20 min. to fire your record rounds. If the wind changes you need the all extra you can get. My first BRX, I had a 6BR punched to BRX, it added 225 F/s to 3050 F/S. All of my BRX run great at around 3000 F/S this will put you within a few inches of a 6.5 X 47L , There are far more 6BR and 6BR IMP shooting 600and 1000 yd benchrest than 6.5 X 47L. In IBS 600 yds benchrest, the 6BR and IMP have set 20 to 30 records and hold all but one record currently. Sam is getting great results with a 6.5 x 47L, But Sam has shot about 15 of those records with a plain 6BR.

Mark Schronce

 

[therifler]

Mark , what you say is certainly true 6BR is the cartridge to beat for sure and there are alot of guys shooting 6br of some sort. However if on sunday afternoon 35 drivers where racing
chevy and 8 where racing ford i would put my money on the chevys. In other words how do you know what potential this cartridge has if you don't try it . You know as well as i do that if someone like Sam Hall starts winning with this within a year there will be 6.5 coming out of the woodwork . It is making a drive in F-Class and if properly tuned I know it can work from the bench . I believe that the 6mm's are easier to load but once you fine the right load and not just powder the 6.5 will shoot with the 6's. The Rifler

 

[favload]

I primarily shoot F-class @ 300yds and I shoot 600 and 1000 for fun and comp. Having access to such a range is driving me towards an ever more accurate round. However, money is tight so I want to make every dollar count. I have seen the awesome accuracy of the 6BR and a BRX took 1st place at a 300yd range I shot at for the year's best.
I'm looking for something that can group very well at 300 for F-class and outshoot most others at 600-1000 with as little recoil as possible.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If all you are going to shoot is 300 yds. Then just go with a straight 6BR, very hard to beat at 300.

-Erik

 

[MarkS]

favload and therifler,

The 6.5 X 47L should be a good long range round. it has not been proven yet. I do not know the potential of this cartridge. I have been there before, I wanted more power than the 6BR and punched it to a 6XC, great long range round works great for HP and fclass. This barrel shot great before. The 6XC would only get 0.5 moa at 600yds, 3" did not cut it in 2005 in IBS 600 and will need half that now. My gunsmith wanted me to go with the new 6.5 x 47L or a 6 X 47L. I told him when the new Lapua 47L start kicking my butt, I would try one. I had been there and done that with the 6XC. IF Sam starts kicking butt with the 6.5 X 47L, a lot of guys will go to it.
A lot of the guys, tried the 6 X 47L and it did not do well, just like the 6XC, and went back to there 6BR's.
This how we find new things, but I am going to let others do it. I shot the IBS 600 yd LG record in 2007' 0.749"with a 6BRX, it was taken in 2008' with a 6BRX 0.711". I am going to stay with my 6BRX for now.


Mark Schronce