6mm Berger 108 and 105 Bullet Question

[swadiver]

thanks!!

 

[dkhunt14]

I have shot a lot of 108 BT and 105 VLD in a 6 Dasher. I believe the 108 is easier to get to shoot. It liked it about .005 in the lands. They shoot great round groups at 1000. The VLD throws tighter knots and seems to want to leak out a few. They liked it about .010 in the lands. Although they were harder to get to shoot, if you got them to shoot they would shoot smaller groups. I shoot 1000 yard BR so i was looking for the really small groups.

I won a lot of relays with both. They were that close it was hard to chose which one. Matt

 

[Terry]

I have used about 150 105 gr. Hybrids trying to get them to shoot in my6-284. I can get no better than .750 at 100 yards. I am about .010 off. Might just have to try some 108's.

What velocity are you running? Many run 108's at 2850 to 2950.

 

[Mulligan]

I have shot a lot of 108 BT and 105 VLD in a 6 Dasher. I believe the 108 is easier to get to shoot. It liked it about .005 in the lands. They shoot great round groups at 1000. The VLD throws tighter knots and seems to want to leak out a few. They liked it about .010 in the lands. Although they were harder to get to shoot, if you got them to shoot they would shoot smaller groups. I shoot 1000 yard BR so i was looking for the really small groups.

I won a lot of relays with both. They were that close it was hard to chose which one. Matt

Matt,
Did you shoot the VLD or hunting VLD?
I have never shot the 105 target VLDs. The 108s have always shot great, i tried the 105 hunts on a recommendation from a friend and never went back.
CW

 

[nmkid]

What velocity are you running? Many run 108's at 2850 to 2950.

Could be part of my problem. They're running about 3340. 8 twist.

 

[dkhunt14]

Matt,
Did you shoot the VLD or hunting VLD?
I have never shot the 105 target VLDs. The 108s have always shot great, i tried the 105 hunts on a recommendation from a friend and never went back.
CW

I shoot all hunting VLD in everything.. The jackets are thinner and seem to form better. I believe as a rule they are more consistant and measuring them, showed this. All the original bullets from Berger came in yellow boxes, these are now the hunting version.

The target version came about when a few guys were blowing up bullets. It was mostly the 6.5 bullet not making it to target. I believe it was caused by rough throats, pushing them real hard in a fast twist. I also believe they should of kept their original bullet in a yellow box and put the new target version with a thicker jacket in the orange box. I think it would of been less confusing to people. Matt

 

[bdale]

Rodney said he was using 108's when he shot a world record .336 at 600 pretty small

 

[ShootDots]

Rodney said he was using 108's when he shot a world record .336 at 600 pretty small

In a barrel that digests them very well, they most certainly could (and evidently have) set records in both BR and F-Class.

 

[Laurie]

The target version came about when a few guys were blowing up bullets. It was mostly the 6.5 bullet not making it to target. I believe it was caused by rough throats, pushing them real hard in a fast twist. .......... Matt

Yes, that's how it was. Back in the days when the 6.5-284 was THE F-Class cartridge. There was a lot of discussion on this and the US Rifle Teams' Long Range Forums and Berger's President, Eric Stecker, made a number of statements and gave some very detailed explanations of what was going on.

........ or what seemed to be going on as causes were never 100% put to bed. Berger appealed for anybody who had a bullet blow up in flight to contact them to try to find common factors, but I don't think they ever did. FWIW Berger carried out their own tests and IIRC Eric Stecker said never managed to get one to fail. It was surmised it was a combination of barrel fouling, erosion, and temperature allied to hot, high pressure loads in fast rifling twist rates, plus most likely high ambient temperatures. It was mostly in F-Class. (I don't recall hearing of any failing in GB F-Class where we shoot in lower temperatures and shoot alternately with the two on the mound system, so neither barrels / chambers or air temperatures are as high.)

In any event, Berger took it very seriously and quickly experimented with thicker J4 jackets, adopting them when the results were found to be satisfactory. That apparently cured the blow-up issue and if you see it these days, it's invariably another make. The new match bullets were originally stickered on the lines of 140gn 6.5gn Match VLD (Thick) and I have one or two bullet models with thin and thick jackets from either side of the changes. I'm not sure if the move to orange boxes for Hunting VLDs occurred straight away. I think not, but who cares now anyway? In any event, Berger renamed its bullets in a more logical fashion to avoid confusion after the split took place.

An irony of this that may amuse and certainly puzzle my US friends was that our (UK) government of the day 'gave in' to rabble rousing left-wing politicos and ignorant journalists who'd formed a pressure group to have expanding bullets banned in the UK after the Dunblane school massacre that saw handguns virtually banned here. Thomas Hamilton the perpetrator had used JSPs in one of the pistols so the old emotive 'flesh tearing Dum Dum bullets .... no place in a civilised society' cr*p reared its ugly head not for the first time. Having committed his government to banning these bullets in answer to a parliamentary amendment in a debate on the handgun legislation, the Home Secretary then discovered that by law they must be used on various live quarry, so he had in effect accepted a measure that banned deerhunting - and since HM The Queen and her close relatives are rather keen on what we call deerstalking, he was asked by a senior aide if he personally was going to tell HMQ she was a criminal, or if he was going to ask the Prime Minister to give her the good news in the weekly HMQ-PM meeting. In the end we got a bastard system where expanding bullets and ammunition loaded with them were moved into Section 5 of the Firearms Acts, that is they became prohibited weapons, but became 'unprohibited' for those people whose shooting needed them and had a special authorisation given and printed on their firearms licenses. With all sorts of restrictions added in (no mail order sales, limits on quantities held and purchased etc, etc).

Everybody including the firearms licensing authorities and the police hated this system and we finally got rid of it earlier this year with a small quietly done legislation amendment. For over 10 years though, we couldn't use a hunting VLD here for target shooting and if the thick-jacket Target VLD was sold out, then tough! It also meant we couldn't use any dual purpose bullets such as the .243 87gn VLD intended for match use in 243 Win rifles alongside deerhunting as they came in the dreaded orange box.

 

[rocketron]

swadiver nice shooting. what i find interesting is the first target speeds. shot 14 & 16 are 70 fps apart and 14 & 20 are 83 fps but the vertical is really close.

 

[chevytruck_83]

Just like that the 108’s are sold out.

 

[kvd]

I will give you my 2 cents. The 108gr. Berger B/T is one of the finest, most consistently accurate 6mm bullet made. The ..511 B.C. is, in my humble opinion, grossly understated. I believe it is right with either the Hybrid or the VLD. I have had LOADS of experience with it. The Berger 105gr B/T is one of the most accurate 6mm bullets on the market, rivaling, if not the equal of the 108.. However, it's B.C. is fairly low for a 105 and I believe that is the reason why it is not "the fair haired bullet" and the 108 and Hybrids are. But it is very accurate and for 300-500 yards it is more than acceptable.

I forgot to mention, the bearing surface of the Berger 108 is the longest I know of, about 60 thousandths LONGER than the 105 B/T. So WILL run pressures quicker with the 108 by far, than the 105 B/T..

I have shot a lot of 108 BT and 105 VLD in a 6 Dasher. I believe the 108 is easier to get to shoot. It liked it about .005 in the lands.

Okay guys – you’ve roused my curiosity. Why would you choose to shoot a ballistically inferior bullet. Berger’s ballistic information clearly shows the VLD’s and Hybrid 105’s to have the advantage in this area. Considering that the shape of the bullet will be somewhat modified after being mashed and extruded through the barrel and emerge with rifling grooves where a nice smooth surface used to be – and that some copper jacket will be stripped off and remain in the barrel - doesn’t it make sense to shoot the bullet with the highest BC possible since bullets spend a lot more time in the wind than in the barrel?

Of course the results speak for themselves and it is hard to argue with success. I’m interested to see what your understanding is as to what might be the reason the Berger 108 grain BT’s shoot as well as the various Berger 105 grain bullets when, on paper anyway, the 105’s should fly better.

 

[ShootDots]

Okay guys – you’ve roused my curiosity. Why would you choose to shoot a ballistically inferior bullet. Berger’s ballistic information clearly shows the VLD’s and Hybrid 105’s to have the advantage in this area. Considering that the shape of the bullet will be somewhat modified after being mashed and extruded through the barrel and emerge with rifling grooves where a nice smooth surface used to be – and that some copper jacket will be stripped off and remain in the barrel - doesn’t it make sense to shoot the bullet with the highest BC possible since bullets spend a lot more time in the wind than in the barrel?

Of course the results speak for themselves and it is hard to argue with success. I’m interested to see what your understanding is as to what might be the reason the Berger 108 grain BT’s shoot as well as the various Berger 105 grain bullets when, on paper anyway, the 105’s should fly better.

Try this: Go out to 1000 yards and shoot on a clean target the Hybrid at ??? velocity and the 108 at the same velocity. See where they print. I will bet a tidy sum you can not tell the difference! They are both great bullets, however, start measuring the OAL of BOTH bullets, Base-to-Ogive of both bullets and weight them>>>you will see the 108 has a little tighter tolerances.

 

[dkhunt14]

Okay guys – you’ve roused my curiosity. Why would you choose to shoot a ballistically inferior bullet. Berger’s ballistic information clearly shows the VLD’s and Hybrid 105’s to have the advantage in this area. Considering that the shape of the bullet will be somewhat modified after being mashed and extruded through the barrel and emerge with rifling grooves where a nice smooth surface used to be – and that some copper jacket will be stripped off and remain in the barrel - doesn’t it make sense to shoot the bullet with the highest BC possible since bullets spend a lot more time in the wind than in the barrel?

Of course the results speak for themselves and it is hard to argue with success. I’m interested to see what your understanding is as to what might be the reason the Berger 108 grain BT’s shoot as well as the various Berger 105 grain bullets when, on paper anyway, the 105’s should fly better.

I shoot 1000 yard BR. Group takes preference. I am not at all interested in BC. The target tells me what works and what doesn't. It doesn't know the gun has two more clicks of elevation or three clicks more wind. I shoot what shoots best. The 108 is a good bullet. The 108 BT and the 105 VLD are pretty close. It is not a day and night difference. Some guns prefer one over the other and some don't. It seems the 108 is easier to tune and has a broader node. I hope this explains it. Matt

 

[kvd]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen. I've come to appreciate the amount of time and effort ya'll put into reloading for accuracy and precision. Something for me to ponder - BC's are guidance for bullet selection versus the real world experience of actually working with and shooting them.

Happy New Year!

 

[ShootDots]

I shoot 1000 yard BR. Group takes preference. I am not at all interested in BC. The target tells me what works and what doesn't. It doesn't know the gun has two more clicks of elevation or three clicks more wind. I shoot what shoots best. The 108 is a good bullet. The 108 BT and the 105 VLD are pretty close. It is not a day and night difference. Some guns prefer one over the other and some don't. It seems the 108 is easier to tune and has a broader node. I hope this explains it. Matt

EXACTLY! A "click here or a click there" does it make any difference at 1000? Is it possible to hold 1/8th MOA at 1000? Methinks not.. Unless your rifle is fully capable of shooting down at 1/8th MOA, you will never know over say even 6 shots if 1 click made a difference or not>>>range conditions mean A LOT more than 1 click at 1000!

 

[ShootDots]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen. I've come to appreciate the amount of time and effort ya'll put into reloading for accuracy and precision. Something for me to ponder - BC's are guidance for bullet selection versus the real world experience of actually working with and shooting them.

Happy New Year!

You are correct KVD! "Real World (as in "on paper" results) are what counts. That does not mean that B.C. should NOT be taken into consideration when bullet selection is made. It depends on your discipline. Just like DKHunt said, B.C. is of no consequence to him>>only group size. However, in F-Class B.C. does become an issue. However, ACCURACY still TRUMPS B.C.! It does not matter the wind drift of any given bullet, or the lack of wind drift, if you can't place it, time-after-time, where YOU want it to go>>>not where IT decides to go!

 

[kvd]

New years resolution - I've got to find a place to practice shooting at 1000 yards!

 

[Willow]

Try this: Go out to 1000 yards and shoot on a clean target the Hybrid at ??? velocity and the 108 at the same velocity. See where they print. I will bet a tidy sum you can not tell the difference! They are both great bullets, however, start measuring the OAL of BOTH bullets, Base-to-Ogive of both bullets and weight them>>>you will see the 108 has a little tighter tolerances.

BC isn't always the be all and end all. I've got 2 great loads developed for my 6BRAI, the first developed with the 108s and the second with 105 VLDs (hunting). Couldn't get the hybrids to group as cleanly as the other two but the 108s hold tighter vertical (just) than the VLDs.

Okay guys – you’ve roused my curiosity. Why would you choose to shoot a ballistically inferior bullet. Berger’s ballistic information clearly shows the VLD’s and Hybrid 105’s to have the advantage in this area. Considering that the shape of the bullet will be somewhat modified after being mashed and extruded through the barrel and emerge with rifling grooves where a nice smooth surface used to be – and that some copper jacket will be stripped off and remain in the barrel - doesn’t it make sense to shoot the bullet with the highest BC possible since bullets spend a lot more time in the wind than in the barrel?

Of course the results speak for themselves and it is hard to argue with success. I’m interested to see what your understanding is as to what might be the reason the Berger 108 grain BT’s shoot as well as the various Berger 105 grain bullets when, on paper anyway, the 105’s should fly better.

BC isn't always the be all and end all. I've got 2 great loads developed for my 6BRAI, the first developed with the 108s and the second with 105 VLDs (hunting). Couldn't get the hybrids to group as cleanly as the other two but I reckon the 108s hold tighter vertical (just) than the VLDs, and I put that down in part to the consistency of the bullet.

 

[kvd]

BC isn't always the be all and end all. I've got 2 great loads developed for my 6BRAI, the first developed with the 108s and the second with 105 VLDs (hunting). Couldn't get the hybrids to group as cleanly as the other two but I reckon the 108s hold tighter vertical (just) than the VLDs, and I put that down in part to the consistency of the bullet.

Hi Willow,

Would either of these loads by chance be for 100 yards IBS action (group or score)? Still looking for something good for short range.