6mm ARC - Practical Reloading

[Henryrifle]

Based on the data above in post #58, I decided to focus on CFE223. Confidently, I put together 108 ELD-M loads with 28.1, 28.3, 28.4, 28.5 & 28.6 grains of CFE223. I was relatively sure I was going to be writing a victorious self-congratulatory post describing how I found the .3 to .5 MOA load.

Sadly, that is not how this post ends, however; there may be some good news.


Charge Wt.--MV--SD--MOA@100

28.1--2569--3.7--0.761
28.1--2556--11.8--0.961
28.3--2584--8.8--0.737
28.3--2594--10.9--0.782
28.4--2604--8.8--1.162 -Changed rifle hold
28.4--2595--7.5--1.579 -Changed rifle hold
28.5--2611--10.8--0.628
28.5--2608--10.6--1.25
28.6--2632--5.2--0.998 -Changed rifle hold
28.6--2626--8.9--1.058 -Changed rifle hold

While the 28.1 and 28.3 loads did not produce the most accurate groups the rifle has produced, they did produce the most consistent sub MOA groups. The more I shoot this AR, the more difficult I think it is to shoot well compared to a bolt gun. I tried a more aggressive front bipod load and cheek weld that produced some of the worst groups from the rifle. Also, not a smart thing to do when load testing.

Next steps:

1. Test 28.1, 28.2 and 28.3 grains of CFE and see if that load repeats. If so, I have my baseline load and can continue testing other combinations and components.
2. Retest 28.4 and 28.5 grains of CFE as the results were much better on a previous day with my normal hold.
3. Test with Varget starting at 26.4 grains up to about 27.0 grains as it looked like group size was shrinking around that charge.
4. Consider replacing SSA-E trigger with National Match trigger. While there is some vertical in my groups, the worst groups have a lot of horizontal.
5. This should be #1 but, learn how to shoot an AR consistently.

Henryrifle

 

[ormandj]

Definitely go with just taking the slack out on the bipod loading, you'll flex the hand guard with more than that. On the trigger, while a better trigger might help, that SSA-E should be plenty shootable. I'll throw out I significantly prefer the TriggerTech Diamonds if you want a two stage. I would start with the fundamentals first. I suggest focusing on the trigger technique to ensure you're pulling directly into the trigger shoe, if focusing on groups. You may be anticipating recoil/gas operation, as it's significantly different than a bolt gun, and that takes a good bit of training to work around.

Not getting too crazy on the cheek weld and positioning your body to give you a NPOA (natural point of aim) on target is the next step. A good exercise is getting all setup to fire with optics/sights on target in the respiratory pause, closing your eyes, and taking two normal breaths, then opening them again. If your optic is still dead center on target during the respiratory pause, you're solid. If not, move _you_ and not the rifle, then try again. Firing fundamentals are the same as a bolt, except follow-through matters even more. Don't release the trigger until you hear impact or see the trace if you're firing at longer distances. You'll work on speed once you get through the anticipation of recoil impulse/gas cycling disturbing your shots.

Another thing to check before you go chasing everything, ensure optic is tight, gas block isn't impacting handguard, handguard is tight, magazine isn't dragging on firing, handguard doesn't flex into barrel when loaded on bipod lightly, etc. There's so much that can go wrong, I'd hate for you to chase loads and find out it was something goofy equipment related!

I went from bolt actions to semis many years back, and it took a good bit of practice to become proficient. I then started teaching and that's when I really started to learn. It really is very different in a lot of ways, so don't be disenfranchised. I agree with your sentiment, on (5) - make that (1). Good luck!

 

[Henryrifle]

Thank you for the pointers! I believe I have taken care of all the mechanical aspects on the rifle. Will continue working on the trigger puller.

Henryrifle

 

[Henryrifle]

Good news from the 1000 yard range today. I decided to get back to basics with a Harris bipod and Accuracy 1st squeeze bag. Using a modest front load and reasonable (normal) cheek pressure (thank you ormandj), I found I could create a rock solid hold through the scope. I started at 200 yards and put two shots within an inch of each other and progressively worked out to 700 yards putting two shots on each subsequent 100 yard target.

The Applied Ballistics app had me putting in a little more elevation than I needed by 600 yards so, I stopped at 700 yards to run a calibration. There also happens to be a 5" plate at 700 which was easy to consistently hit in succession with mag fed rounds.

The 800, 900 and 1000 yard gongs are all 20" plates and were very easy to hit - no misses at all. There was a half MOA, 5", square target at 1000 yards that was not so easy to connect with. I hit it 3 out of 10 times (1 mag) but, the great news is that you could easily spot all misses and make the appropriate correction on the next shot.

I used the 28.3 grain CFE223 load which gives me 2590 FPS. I suspect it was a little faster today based on the outputs of the Applied Ballistics app.

I think that load likely is a .7 to .8 MOA load which is fine for doing what I was doing today. I am sure there is a more accurate load to find but, at least I have a good load to play with while doing the more disciplined work of load development.

Today was the last 50 rounds of virgin brass. I am hopeful that I will find more accuracy now that I have 200 once fired cases to experiment with. That is one more potential variable that is removed.

The most important thing that today validates for me is that the 6mm ARC really is a 1000+ yard cartridge than can be fired from a relatively lightweight AR-15 platform with all the qualities you'd want of easy of carry, low recoil, high reliability and relatively normal stress on the system. Good motivation to continue pressing forward.

Henryrifle

 

[SF-Guy]

Wanted to learn about what others are trying and share my experience so far:


Build:

• 20” 1:7 twist 416 SS DMR Profile Ballistic Advantage barrel
• Vltor upper and lower
• Ballistic Advantage bolt in PSA premium bolt carrier
• Adjustable gas block
• TBAC Ultra-9 suppressor
• Geissele SSA-E trigger

Goal:
It would be fun to have a relatively light weight AR-15 platformed rifle that can consistently shoot at or under .5 MOA from 100 to 1000 yards.

Testing:
From prone using Joy-Pod bipod, Bigfoot rear bag and NF 5.5-22X50 optic. All rounds loaded to 2.26 COAL.

First steps:
Using the lathe, I modified some 6.5 Grendel dies by shaving off .040 from the base and replacing the neck sizing bushing. I set the dies up in a Forster Coax press and using annealed 6.5 Grendel brass, sized the necks down and pushed the shoulders back to the SAAMI specs. I also used a Sinclair carbide expander mandrel before loading.

First firing:
I was lazy, and using known data from the 6mm AR, I loaded 27.5 grains of H4895 under a 105 Berger Hybrid Target. This was way over pressure yielding speeds in the 2730 FPS range, heavy ejector swipes and unusably expanded primer pockets. Groups were all in the 1 to 1.5 MOA range at 100 yards. SDs were in the low single digits, however! Bad test - bad approach and dangerous. I know better and am lucky to re-learn that lesson without the pain that often accompanies such learnings.

Second firing:
Testing from 26.0 grains of H4895 up to 26.5 grains showed better results. The best results were the 26.5 grain charges with speeds of 2594 but SDs in the 17 FPS range. 100 yard groups were in the mid .5 MOA range. The groups got worse as the the powder charge decreased. No pressure signs, swipes or ejector marks at this charge range. It is, however, over pressure according to Quickload.

Changing gears:
I received some Hornady 105 grain Black factory ammunition that shot poorly in my barrel. Speed was good at 2640 FPS and SDs were a reasonable 11.4 FPS. Group sizes at 100 yards were terrible at 1.9 MOA.

I also tried some VARGET under the Hornady 108 ELD-M. 27 grains yielded 2554 FPS with a 5.5 SD and very repeatable .5 - .52 MOA at 100. I took these out to 700 and 900 yards on a windless day with the same .4 to .5 MOA results. The lack of wind is unusual but was welcomed. There were no pressure signs at this charge weight, however, Quickload estimates that this is 3900 PSI over SAAMI pressure.

Learning so far:
Fired by not resized converted 6.5 Grendel brass holds 34.74 grains of water and fired but not resized factory 6mm ARC cases holds 34.58 grains of water. In Quickload I edited a 6 PPC case for case length and case capacity and now get estimated MV within 2-4 FPS of what I have measured using the Labradar.

Disclaimer:
All of the above hand loads are above 52000 PSI, and, as such, I am obligated to warn everyone from trying them. If you do so, you are doing it at your own risk.

Next Steps:
It looks like the 27 grain VARGET and 108 ELD-M combo is very close to a predicted OBT node. .2 to .3 more grains is what I am going to test next.

Additionally, I don’t want to give up on H4895. I want to test this powder with both the 108 ELD-M and the 105 Hybrid Target.

• Will try 26.6 H4895 with 108 ELD-M expecting 2608 FPS out of my barrel.
• Will also try 26.5 H4895 with 105 Hybrid Target expecting 2635 FPS out of my barrel.

Both of the above correspond to OBT nodes using Quickload.

Request:
There is already a big thread in progress discussing the merits of this cartridge which is interesting but not the intent of this one. Would like to keep this thread focused on practical experience and suggestions to optimize safe hand loads for this cartridge in semi-auto gas rifles.

Hope this helps someone,

Henryrifle

Terrific info here. If you think you might like the 6mmARC why not try the 6mmAR from Robert Whitley? It takes 6.5 Grendel brass and just neck it to 6mm. The 0.05mm reduction in the neck is all that is necessary. The 6mmAR is 0.0030” longer shoulder than the 6 ARC. Identical to the Grendel. I first tried mine in one of his uppers and later tried it in a bolt gun with terrific results. 26” bbl on the AR upper; 30” bbl on the bolt gun.

 

[Henryrifle]

Update:

I continue to experience acceptable results with the 108 ELD-M and CFE223 out of my 21.75" barrel. I have a lot more CCI 400 primers than either BR4s or 450s and wanted to test the 400s today.

I shot four 5-shot groups with the same 28.3 grain charge of CFE223 under a 108 ELD. Two were with BR4 and two with 400s. Results were promising:

-BR4 Groups:

MV--SD--Group size in MOA at 100
2605--14--.636
2607--15.9--.626

-CCI 400 Groups:

MV--SD--Group size in MOA at 100
2611--9.8--.697
2610--10.2--.582 (shot from magazine)

The 400s were flatter but not pierced. No other undesirable observations when using them.

More load development it needed as I think there is more accuracy to be had. The above groups were shot from prone at 100 yards using a Harris bipod and rear squeeze bag. I will do some seating depth tests next as I have only used 2.26 OAL at this point.

@SF-Guy:

To be honest, I don't pay much attention to the wildcat type loads. I have nothing against them and, in this case, it sounds like I have been missing out on something pretty good for years. I happened to read an early article about the 6mm ARC and thought how fun it could be to have an AR-15 platformed rifle that could shot out to 1000 yards and beyond and, as it turns out, it is! I do think the 6AR is the better cartridge if for no other reason that it can hold a little more powder.

 

[RickB]

My suggestion is to check the twist of your barrel. Several of the test rifles used in the initial round of YouTube videos had twists of 7.5 and 7.7. According to Berger’s bullet twist calculator the Hornady 6mm 108 ELD is stable when fired out of a 7 twist barrel. Several of the groups fired on paper in the YouTube videos and online “print” articles showed signs of being under stabilized.
Unless you have a true 7 twist barrel, try some lighter bullets.

 

[David Milisock]

All my parts for my Aero Precision AR15 are in so as soon as the weather breaks I'll shoot up some factory and try some loads.

The wait provided me with Hornady data so I picked up a couple pounds of LEVERevolution as the Hornady data shows the powder working from 75 grain to 105 grain.

It's a working gun with a 16" barrel, 1 in 7 twist.

 

[Son of a Gun]

Has anyone tried Alliant AR Comp in the 6mm ARC? I use this powder in all my AR loads now and would like too use it in my new 6mm ARC!

 

[457ciSBC]

Has anyone tried Alliant AR Comp in the 6mm ARC? I use this powder in all my AR loads now and would like too use it in my new 6mm ARC!

I loaded up 28.5 grains under a 65 grain Euber and VMAX, but have yet to shoot them. My 18“ is setup for live varmints and I’m only chasing loads mainly in the 65-80 weight range.

FYI, 29 grains COMP poured slowly through a drop tube fills to the base of neck of virgin brass.

 

[Kurbe105]

I've had a similar experience with the 6 ARC. I'm fairly new to precision shooting and reloading so I'm just sharing my experience. I would like to shoot competitively eventually but don't feel like I'm at that level yet. Back in March I pre-ordered an Odin Works 21" barrel(1:7.5) and felt like a kid who didn't get any Christmas presents the first time I shot it after the build was done. The factory Hornady Black shoots horrible. Pretty much 2" groups just like you said. I wandered onto a Youtube video called "Stop Chasing the Lands" by an F class shooter and it sent me down an interesting path. With primers and powder almost impossible to find I turned to tuning the factory ammo. I ended up shooting 28, 5 round groups working through the entire recommended COAL(2.135" - 2.200" for 105gr bthp) from minimum to maximum in .003" increments. I pushed it about .015" past maximum COAL before the bullet started getting tight in the lands. I used a bullet puller that looks like a plastic hammer to lengthen the round before reseating it to get the longer rounds. At 100 yards the 2 best 5 round groups I had at .691" and .397" had bullet seating depths .006" and .009" off the minimum COAL which is well out of the lands. I was using a Hornady comparator on my digital caliper to measure with. Also when measuring COAL to the tip of the BTHP 105gr bullet I found a .010" variance in 10 factory rounds which were all within .001" when measured with the comparator. I used the shortest length of the variances to set my COAL so any variance would hopefully not go below the min COAL. Long story short, I haven't messed with anything but the seating depth yet but am hopeful for more sub .5 moa groups now. I want to do the same test with the factory Match ELD ammo but I think I'll probably start at the short end and just stop once I find a good node instead of wasting a bunch of rounds. Also thanks for this thread. I have some 109gr Berger hybrids to reload eventually with CCI 450s and CFE 223. Judging from your results I figured I'd start around 23gr of CFE 223 and work up from there.

 

[Henryrifle]

@Kurbe105: No better way to learn competitive shooting than to just sign up and go. You will accelerate your knowledge and skill level much faster and everyone I have ever shot with in competition is willing to help the newer guys out and grow the sport--at least until you bet them .

23 grains of CFE is way too little as a starting point. Not sure you'd even hit 2200 FPS. Perhaps the Burger 109 has a MUCH larger bearing surface than does the 108 ELD, I don't know, but, that is still too little powder. 26 grains would be a more reasonable starting point but even at that you will likely end up between 28 and 29 grains of CFE.

I have switched to LEVERevolution as it offers even better MV than CFE 223. I am not chasing MV but do use my 6mm ARC for hunting. So far, I have shot mine in temperatures from 34 to 65 degrees and have noticed no change in MV due to temperature. We'll see what happens this summer. Not knocking CFE 223. It works well too.

Looking forward to hearing more about your experience with the hand loads.

Henryrifle

 

[Raptor]

I've had a similar experience with the 6 ARC. I'm fairly new to precision shooting and reloading so I'm just sharing my experience. I would like to shoot competitively eventually but don't feel like I'm at that level yet. Back in March I pre-ordered an Odin Works 21" barrel(1:7.5) and felt like a kid who didn't get any Christmas presents the first time I shot it after the build was done. The factory Hornady Black shoots horrible. Pretty much 2" groups just like you said. I wandered onto a Youtube video called "Stop Chasing the Lands" by an F class shooter and it sent me down an interesting path. With primers and powder almost impossible to find I turned to tuning the factory ammo. I ended up shooting 28, 5 round groups working through the entire recommended COAL(2.135" - 2.200" for 105gr bthp) from minimum to maximum in .003" increments. I pushed it about .015" past maximum COAL before the bullet started getting tight in the lands. I used a bullet puller that looks like a plastic hammer to lengthen the round before reseating it to get the longer rounds. At 100 yards the 2 best 5 round groups I had at .691" and .397" had bullet seating depths .006" and .009" off the minimum COAL which is well out of the lands. I was using a Hornady comparator on my digital caliper to measure with. Also when measuring COAL to the tip of the BTHP 105gr bullet I found a .010" variance in 10 factory rounds which were all within .001" when measured with the comparator. I used the shortest length of the variances to set my COAL so any variance would hopefully not go below the min COAL. Long story short, I haven't messed with anything but the seating depth yet but am hopeful for more sub .5 moa groups now. I want to do the same test with the factory Match ELD ammo but I think I'll probably start at the short end and just stop once I find a good node instead of wasting a bunch of rounds. Also thanks for this thread. I have some 109gr Berger hybrids to reload eventually with CCI 450s and CFE 223. Judging from your results I figured I'd start around 23gr of CFE 223 and work up from there.

Please keep us posted what you find with the 108ELDs. I could not find a minimum starting point for the min. side. Where did you find it for the 105?? We built one for my son in law with a Ballistic Advantage barrel and tried some 108 ELDs. The first group out of the rifle shot a .4 5 shot group but the next one was over 1.5"!! That was all we had at the time but we have since found a couple of more boxes. I pulled some of the bullets and found the powder charges go from 29.9 to 30.4!! So maybe that is some of the issues. I was surprised it was that far off esp for a fine ball powder. I am tempted to pull all the bullets and weigh out each charge so it is the same then see what they do......

 

[ClintR]

I’m just coming aboard with Accurate Shooter, I’m an XTC sling shooter. I’ve built an ARC for use in CMP/NRA Tactical Rifle class. Ive read through much of the posts to familiarize myself with trials and errors to try to minimize errors and to learn from you. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
my equipment: I’m using my service rifle lower which has a Geissele hi-speed 4.5 lb total weight pull, 2lb break. Also has a UBR Gen1 stock. The upper, Proof Research 20” SS 1.7:5” bbl, Aero Precision BCG, JP adjustable gas block and White Oak 15” hand guard. aero Precision upper and lower receivers.
I’m going to run ladders to locate nodes to further research possible candidates for production. I’ll share my data.
My use will be 600 yard and 1000 yard prone with sling. My club has 600 and Ft Benning to 1000.
components on hand: CFE223, cci 400 , Cci 450, Rem 7 1/2, Win SR, 108gr ELD-M, Lapua 105gr Scenar, Nosler 105gr RDF, Berger 108gr BT Target and Berger 95gr Hunter Classics.
Semper Fi

 

[Henryrifle]

@ClintR: Welcome to the forum. Looks like we are practically neighbors! What kind of accuracy do you need to be successful in Across the Course? Can you shoot from a magazine in XTC or is it single load?

You have a great selection of the right components. CFE 223 is definitely a good 6mm ARC powder and I have shot a lot of it. Would be worth picking up some LEVERevolution to test with as well. It gives more MV than CFE at the same or similar pressure and has produces great single digit SDs consistently. I have tested it in temperatures from 35 to 65 with no change in MV. This summer will be interesting for sure...

Good luck with your rifle. Sounds like a great build.

Henryrifle

 

[Kurbe105]

Please keep us posted what you find with the 108ELDs. I could not find a minimum starting point for the min. side. Where did you find it for the 105?? We built one for my son in law with a Ballistic Advantage barrel and tried some 108 ELDs. The first group out of the rifle shot a .4 5 shot group but the next one was over 1.5"!! That was all we had at the time but we have since found a couple of more boxes. I pulled some of the bullets and found the powder charges go from 29.9 to 30.4!! So maybe that is some of the issues. I was surprised it was that far off esp for a fine ball powder. I am tempted to pull all the bullets and weigh out each charge so it is the same then see what they do......

Sounds like we both have the same idea. I google searched "6mm ARC cartridge specs" and found a SAAMI diagram for the COAL min/max range. I called Odin works and they said the shape of the 105gr bthp causes the ogive to get stuck in the lands if you try to take it out to 2.240" so Hornady shortened the max COAL for that bullet to 2.200". I had 1 round that I took completely apart to build a dummy and found 30.4 on the charge weight. I had the same thought on tuning the factory charge, but figured I'd find my seating depth node first. Hopefully I can get to the range this week to test out some 108 ELDs I worked up. I switched to 3 round groups for this last batch to conserve ammo in these crazy times.

 

[Kurbe105]

@Kurbe105: No better way to learn competitive shooting than to just sign up and go. You will accelerate your knowledge and skill level much faster and everyone I have ever shot with in competition is willing to help the newer guys out and grow the sport--at least until you bet them .

23 grains of CFE is way too little as a starting point. Not sure you'd even hit 2200 FPS. Perhaps the Burger 109 has a MUCH larger bearing surface than does the 108 ELD, I don't know, but, that is still too little powder. 26 grains would be a more reasonable starting point but even at that you will likely end up between 28 and 29 grains of CFE.

I have switched to LEVERevolution as it offers even better MV than CFE 223. I am not chasing MV but do use my 6mm ARC for hunting. So far, I have shot mine in temperatures from 34 to 65 degrees and have noticed no change in MV due to temperature. We'll see what happens this summer. Not knocking CFE 223. It works well too.

Looking forward to hearing more about your experience with the hand loads.

Henryrifle

Thanks for the advice. I still haven't worked up any of my own loads yet. Just been tuning the factory rounds. I've been told with the CCI 450s to use anywhere from 1gr to 3gr less powder than published data because they burn hotter. With the CFE223 26gr sounds like it would be a good starting place with the 109 berger from your data. Thanks again.

 

[Henryrifle]

Due to component shortages, I want to reserve my remaining CCI 450s and BR4s for competition. I tested those two plus regular CCI 400s and actually saw slightly higher MV with the 400s. With LEVERevolution the SDs are still in the low single digits. All of this was in approximately 60 degree temperatures and on the same day. Accuracy was unchanged.

Normally, I want to shoot small groups but have learned a lot from this rifle and project. The rifle shoots at approximately 1 MOA. This was disappointing at first and, to some degree, still is. I can shoot groups in the .65 MOA range but that seems to require me (as a shooter) to use a rear bag rather than a squeeze bag. I have been working on my AR shooting technique but obviously have a ways to go yet.

What I've learned is that the rifle works great for small to medium sized deer here in Georgia within 300 yards (haven't tried it at longer ranges), is super fun to shoot at distances out to 1000 yards on 2 MOA steel and can do all of that out of an AR platform. I have even shot it out to 1300 yards with a 27% hit ratio on 1.5 MOA steel. Nothing to brag about but impressive, in my opinion, for an AR.

Can't wait to see/read about some results.

Henryrifle

 

[Raptor]

Sounds like we both have the same idea. I google searched "6mm ARC cartridge specs" and found a SAAMI diagram for the COAL min/max range. I called Odin works and they said the shape of the 105gr bthp causes the ogive to get stuck in the lands if you try to take it out to 2.240" so Hornady shortened the max COAL for that bullet to 2.200". I had 1 round that I took completely apart to build a dummy and found 30.4 on the charge weight. I had the same thought on tuning the factory charge, but figured I'd find my seating depth node first. Hopefully I can get to the range this week to test out some 108 ELDs I worked up. I switched to 3 round groups for this last batch to conserve ammo in these crazy times.

View attachment 1225683

I actually pulled down a bunch of them and found out the charges are a lot closer than I first realized!! I found powder sticking under the shoulder junction!!! I think this was caused by the loads being compressed. When I cleaned this powder out the loads were all fairly consistant. I reloaded some at 29.5 then 30.0 and then the 30.4 and hopefully weather permitting we will shoot them this weekend and see how they do....

 

[Kurbe105]

Please keep us posted what you find with the 108ELDs. I could not find a minimum starting point for the min. side. Where did you find it for the 105?? We built one for my son in law with a Ballistic Advantage barrel and tried some 108 ELDs. The first group out of the rifle shot a .4 5 shot group but the next one was over 1.5"!! That was all we had at the time but we have since found a couple of more boxes. I pulled some of the bullets and found the powder charges go from 29.9 to 30.4!! So maybe that is some of the issues. I was surprised it was that far off esp for a fine ball powder. I am tempted to pull all the bullets and weigh out each charge so it is the same then see what they do......

I made it to the 100yd range yesterday and got some encouraging results. Keep in mind my COALs are an approximate measurement for reference. I use a comparator to measure to the ogive of the bullet for my actual seating depth measurements.

Ok so I had 44 - three round groups with COALs starting from 2.136" and going up to 2.265" in .003" increments. I had 22 sub moa groups. Six of those groups had large groups on each side of them so they got tossed out. In my rifle the factory match 108gr ELDs seem to like to be seated a fair amount deeper than the factory seating depth. With COALs from 2.157" to 2.184" I had 8 out of ten groups sub moa with 5 of the 8 groups under .523". The smallest group of the day came in at .342". With powder tuning it may be possible to get sub .250", at least with three round groups. Now that I've found my seating depth node I want to stretch it out to 500yds and see how it does. If I like it I might just call it good.

When you're looking at my photo the shortest COAL was group 1 and the longest was 44. Groups 38 & 39 are closest to factory loads out of the box which explains a lot. Group 44 had a cartridge jam and dented the shoulder before I fired it giving me the only 3"+ group of the day. With group five I was super loose on the grip and accidentally 'bump fired' one of the rounds off the top of the board as I was shooting at the top row so there's that. Neither of those groups had anything exciting going on around them so I didn't worry to much about those mistakes.