6BR- Ackley Improved 40 degree

[moondog]

Ok, so when are we getting a dedicated 6BRA load page started by the Boss?

 

[kvd]

H4895 my choice for all things in a BR case. FF in first bra barrel 30.0 gn worked great. The second bra barrel did not like the stout load for FFing, heavy bolt lift. It likes something a bit lighter in the 29.0 to 29.5 gn range. Using 105 hybrids, jammed 5. 31.1 gn in a formed case is my match load with 103 VTs.

My new barrel seemed to have no problem with 30.0 grains of H4895 and Berger 105 VLD's seated at the lands for fire forming but when I increased the load to 30.6 grains for some 400 yard testing, 5 rounds into the session - a blanked primer! - which subsequently put my finely tuned Jewell trigger out of action and ended an otherwise great day to shoot. Not sure what to make of this as there were no pressure signs prior to this happening.

I've never had this problem before so I don't understand what may have caused it. These are Federal GM205M primers and I can't say I've ever heard they are not durable enough to withstand the pressures of routine 6BRA loads. I initially loaded up with CCI 450's but could not get any of them to denotate. Called Jim Borden (I'm using a Borden Rimrock BR action) to discuss this situation with him and see if maybe a new firing pin (FP) spring would help. He told me that the FP spring was probably not the issue and suggested that he could either add some weight to the firing pin or use Federal primers. I thanked him and opted for the latter. Loaded up 5 rounds with cases that were neck turned to 0.0112 inch and had no issues with 30.0 grains of H4895 and 105 grain Berger VLD's.

Has anyone else had issues with Federal primers and 30 to 31 grains of Hodgdon H4895 in their 6BRA's?

Anyway, been contemplation getting a Bix'n Andy trigger to see how they work so this is a good incentive. Cleaned and readjusted the Jewell and got it working again but it doesn't quite feel the same and I no longer have 100% confidence in the mechanics of it.

Ken

 

[BT1]

My new barrel seemed to have no problem with 30.0 grains of H4895 and Berger 105 VLD's seated at the lands for fire forming but when I increased the load to 30.6 grains for some 400 yard testing, 5 rounds into the session - a blanked primer! - which subsequently put my finely tuned Jewell trigger out of action and ended an otherwise great day to shoot. Not sure what to make of this as there were no pressure signs prior to this happening.

I've never had this problem before so I don't understand what may have caused it. These are Federal GM205M primers and I can't say I've ever heard they are not durable enough to withstand the pressures of routine 6BRA loads. I initially loaded up with CCI 450's but could not get any of them to denotate. Called Jim Borden (I'm using a Borden Rimrock BR action) to discuss this situation with him and see if maybe a new firing pin (FP) spring would help. He told me that the FP spring was probably not the issue and suggested that he could either add some weight to the firing pin or use Federal primers. I thanked him and opted for the latter. Loaded up 5 rounds with cases that were neck turned to 0.0112 inch and had no issues with 30.0 grains of H4895 and 105 grain Berger VLD's.

Has anyone else had issues with Federal primers and 30 to 31 grains of Hodgdon H4895 in their 6BRA's?

Anyway, been contemplation getting a Bix'n Andy trigger to see how they work so this is a good incentive. Cleaned and readjusted the Jewell and got it working again but it doesn't quite feel the same and I no longer have 100% confidence in the mechanics of it.

Ken

View attachment 1023737

Hi Ken,

Have been using the CCI 450s for FFing and have no issues in a Panda action, I use just because I have a quantity in inventory. Bolt and firing pin timed by Wheeler. Use CCI 400 or BR4s for match loads at 31.1+. Have had zero issues with primers. As for the Bix trigger, I am putting another one on a second LG build in progress. They are truly a great trigger. Just buy one and do not look back. Are they worth the extra $200?? I say yes for the 5% added to the build. What other extra $200 investment would give a bigger bang for the $s?

On another topic regarding shooting fast strings. The Bix trigger will help there also, 10 shot strings in 20 seconds or less, is very doable when you have the right "not the most expensive" equipment. If the point of aim returns exactly where it was after pushing the stock forward against the rest stop, why wait? Have a cartridge holding system, so you do not have to look to pick one and just go. Watch some of the videos of Tom Mousel shooting a string and just do that. Agree, that with my entry level actions by Savage, running fast when it is appropriate, is more that a bit difficult. I do have to thank Savage for their targets actions for letting me get interested in BR for a minimum investment.

Steve

 

[Terry Altom]

My new barrel seemed to have no problem with 30.0 grains of H4895 and Berger 105 VLD's seated at the lands for fire forming but when I increased the load to 30.6 grains for some 400 yard testing, 5 rounds into the session - a blanked primer! - which subsequently put my finely tuned Jewell trigger out of action and ended an otherwise great day to shoot. Not sure what to make of this as there were no pressure signs prior to this happening.

I've never had this problem before so I don't understand what may have caused it. These are Federal GM205M primers and I can't say I've ever heard they are not durable enough to withstand the pressures of routine 6BRA loads. I initially loaded up with CCI 450's but could not get any of them to denotate. Called Jim Borden (I'm using a Borden Rimrock BR action) to discuss this situation with him and see if maybe a new firing pin (FP) spring would help. He told me that the FP spring was probably not the issue and suggested that he could either add some weight to the firing pin or use Federal primers. I thanked him and opted for the latter. Loaded up 5 rounds with cases that were neck turned to 0.0112 inch and had no issues with 30.0 grains of H4895 and 105 grain Berger VLD's.

Has anyone else had issues with Federal primers and 30 to 31 grains of Hodgdon H4895 in their 6BRA's?

Anyway, been contemplation getting a Bix'n Andy trigger to see how they work so this is a good incentive. Cleaned and readjusted the Jewell and got it working again but it doesn't quite feel the same and I no longer have 100% confidence in the mechanics of it.

Ken

View attachment 1023737

I had a similar issue with my Borden Rimrock BR. Jim told me pretty much the same thing. Issue is the Rimrock BR action is truely short and there just isn't enough distance for the pin to function well with hard 450s. He can add weight to your pin or you can use something between the 450 and Fed 205, such as CCI 400, WSR or similar.

 

[rardoin]

These are Federal GM205M primers and I can't say I've ever heard they are not durable enough to withstand the pressures of routine 6BRA loads.
View attachment 1023737

I blanked a couple of 205M primers in mild loads 'fireforming'...if you could call it that..6 Creedmoor cases from 6.5 Creed cases. I was loading a 105 berger H at mid 2800's so a relatively light load. Glad I already had the Bix. I have shot BR-4's and Wolf SRM's without issue pushing a 115 DTAC up to 3120fps. Surprised me too.

 

[johara1]

My new barrel seemed to have no problem with 30.0 grains of H4895 and Berger 105 VLD's seated at the lands for fire forming but when I increased the load to 30.6 grains for some 400 yard testing, 5 rounds into the session - a blanked primer! - which subsequently put my finely tuned Jewell trigger out of action and ended an otherwise great day to shoot. Not sure what to make of this as there were no pressure signs prior to this happening.

I've never had this problem before so I don't understand what may have caused it. These are Federal GM205M primers and I can't say I've ever heard they are not durable enough to withstand the pressures of routine 6BRA loads. I initially loaded up with CCI 450's but could not get any of them to denotate. Called Jim Borden (I'm using a Borden Rimrock BR action) to discuss this situation with him and see if maybe a new firing pin (FP) spring would help. He told me that the FP spring was probably not the issue and suggested that he could either add some weight to the firing pin or use Federal primers. I thanked him and opted for the latter. Loaded up 5 rounds with cases that were neck turned to 0.0112 inch and had no issues with 30.0 grains of H4895 and 105 grain Berger VLD's.

Has anyone else had issues with Federal primers and 30 to 31 grains of Hodgdon H4895 in their 6BRA's?

Anyway, been contemplation getting a Bix'n Andy trigger to see how they work so this is a good incentive. Cleaned and readjusted the Jewell and got it working again but it doesn't quite feel the same and I no longer have 100% confidence in the mechanics of it.

Ken

View attachment 1023737

is the primer backed out of the case looks like head space........ could just be the pic. ...... I shoot 31.1 of H4895 and a 103 with fed primers in two different barrels with no issues and I also shot cci 450 and BR 4's....... check firing pin protrusion ...... Jim

 

[moondog]

I,m fireforming with 30.1 grains Varget, 105 vlds seated .010 in, cci br primers.
kelbly's Atlas, 27" Chanlynn 8 twist, Bix comp trigger. After the barrel settled in. I was getting 2820. Fantastic ES. absolutely no pressure. I loaded up the "classic"
31.1 H4895 with 105 Hybrids .010 off and 450's in some formed brass. Got 2970 fps not great ES yet. gunna try Varget and some different primers. Fed great from a ARC mag.

 

[Gabe22BR]

Ken, I played with some 88 gr bergers, using 8208 powder, and Fed match primers, had it to happen to me.
I have been using CCI 450 primer on Dasher, and the BRAI ever since, I also installed a B&A trigger. My old action was a BR, and my new action is a BRM. No problems with 450's here...

 

[kvd]

Use CCI 400 or BR4s for match loads at 31.1+. Have had zero issues with primers. As for the Bix trigger, I am putting another one on a second LG build in progress.

I blanked a couple of 205M primers in mild loads 'fireforming'...if you could call it that..6 Creedmoor cases from 6.5 Creed cases. I was loading a 105 berger H at mid 2800's so a relatively light load. Glad I already had the Bix

Are the Bix'n Andy triggers immune or at least not as susceptible by design to damage if a primer should be blanked?

I shoot 31.1 of H4895 and a 103 with fed primers in two different barrels with no issues and I also shot cci 450 and BR 4's....... check firing pin protrusion ...... Jim

I have a few BR-4's on hand that I used with good results when I had a 6PPC barrel screwed on this action. My firing pin protrusion measurement, by my crude methods (depth gauge on my calipers) is 0.054 inch.

...or you can use something between the 450 and Fed 205, such as CCI 400, WSR or similar.

I have a good supply of Winchester SR primers on hand - mostly for AR type 5.56 rounds for plinking. May check out how they work.

So is a blanked primer the result of some type of headspace/overpressure issues? I suppose the reason one doesn't see hard bolt lift is because the excess pressure, if present, is directed through the bolt and trigger group. I have been cleaning a lot due to breaking in a new barrel, could residual Kroil in the chamber be the problem if not totally removed? This would seem to manifest itself the first shot, not the fifth. I should mention also that these cases were run through a cut down Harrell's D3 Dasher die and had the shoulders bumped back 1 to 2 thousandths. The reason I did this is because I liked the more uniform cut at the neck/shoulder junction with the 40° cutter on my neck turning lathe than the 30° cutter used with standard 6mm BR Norma cases. The 0.0112 inch neck thickness is a little tight in a 0.268 inch chamber neck (0.0112 + 0.0112 + 0.243 = 0.2654) but the plan was to neck turn again after shooting two or three times to a final neck wall thickness of 0.0105 inch. The necks were sized with a 0.262 bushing after turning and final sized with a 0.241 mandrel for a 0.002 inch neck tension.

Attached is a picture of the primer in a loaded round and the blanked one.

Ken

 

[kvd]

Ken, I played with some 88 gr bergers, using 8208 powder, and Fed match primers, had it to happen to me.
I have been using CCI 450 primer on Dasher, and the BRAI ever since, I also installed a B&A trigger. My old action was a BR, and my new action is a BRM. No problems with 450's here...

Yes, Mr. Borden did mention that there were no primer issues with the longer BRM actions. I have a BRMXD action on my F Class rifle and it will shoot anything.

Did you attribute the blanked primer to an overpressure issue?

Ken

 

[rardoin]

I have a BRM XD and a Mountaineer. It was the Mountaineer action in which I blanked the primers. I have been told by more than one shooter that the weak point of a Jewel is that it will likely be damaged if a primer is blanked. I don't know enough about the Jewel to understand this succeptibility. The Bix'n Andy took the lickin' and kept on tickin'. I don't think the action/chamber had anything to do with it and there was no 'tophatting' of the primer and no pressure sign. The same load with BR-4s/ Wolf SRM's has no problem. A soft batch of 205m's maybe??

 

[KenOath]

A friend with Panda F Class, Jewell trigger fire forming BRA has blanked 3 or 4 primers and around 20 didn't ignite, primers were Remington,CCI450 and federal match...

 

[Gabe22BR]

Did you attribute the blanked primer to an overpressure issue?

Ken

YES, as the (3 cases) , only one blanked a primer, but they would not go back in a shell holder.
I give up on Fed primers, in load development, and stuck with 450's ---for everything now on.

This was with my BR action, jewel trigger, 236 bore Dasher.

The jewel trigger didn't have a hiccup, after cleaning.

I like the B&A better-2 balls, so no levers to break.

I wanted a longer ejection port so I got a BRM now..

 

[pat fulghum]

Took 20 rounds of fed GM Match with 31gr H4895 / 105 hybrid .015 off to the range once to compare primers. ...pierced 3 out of 5 and called it quits ...

I now have 2950 for the magical 6.5 creed

I have since stuck with CCI 450 with no issues and have been very happy with results

 

[Jet]

I've had the same thing happen when forming Dasher brass using the Federal primers. I gave up on them and use CCIs now and haven't experienced a blanked primer since.

Good Shooting

Rich

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What is happening with a blanked primer is the primer pushes the firing pin back into the bolt and shears itself off on the firing pin hole. Lack of firing pin energy is the cause usually. In the case of Borden actions, there are some light spring out there. If your action opens super easy Id bet thats your issue. Especially if you are also having light strikes. Any action can have this issue if not set up right. Some Pandas have low pin fall, wrong trigger hanger. If you have to run soft federal primers to get consistent ignition your action needs more ignition energy. On the little BR action some weight and the correct spring will fix them. Some others need more pin fall too. I am a stickler for pin fall, I re-time most actions to get what I want. Most of my builds get this treatment and ignition, accuracy, and blanked primers are never an issue. HAVING to run a certain primer is lame. If your that close to unreliable ignition your probably going to experience accuracy loss.

 

[DJB]

I had lots of trouble with blanked primers. Had to stay away from Fed 205's, and the biggest reason for blanking primers I found, was getting my full length die set up right for the Dasher. Once I got my full length die set up so it head spaced right, the blanked primers problem went away. I use CCI 450's now. I went on You Tube, and adjusted my die according to the Alex Wheeler video. Doug

 

[Sheldon N]

Been fireforming my 6BRA with Federal 205 primers, 29.8g varget, 105 Hybrid's jammed. No issues with the primers. I use 450's on the full loads, but like the lighter primer for fireforming since it's less likely to push the case forward when forming.

 

[madmixerman]

Fireforming bra using 30.5gr. Varget with Fed. 205M primers. No issues, Panda action.

 

[johara1]

I think most of the issues are self inflicted, head space or a week spring. I have run some very high pressure to see if I could hit the next node and again no issues....... Jim