6BR/22BR die question

[Ajwilly96]

I’m picking up a new gun that is chambered in 22BR, I would like to get a second barrel chambered in 6BR for longer distance.

From what I can gather the cases are the exact same except the 22 has a sized down neck.

Would I be able to get a 6BR FL bushing die, then get bushings for 22 as well?

I usually seat bullets with an arbor press, so for the seater would I be able to buy a 6BR Wilson die, then change out the seating stem to a 22?

 

[biggun2869]

I THINK so. I have done it before on TCU cases. I don't see why not but I'll be watching for a more authoritive answer. Gary

 

[Ajwilly96]

I THINK so. I have done it before on TCU cases. I don't see why not but I'll be watching for a more authoritive answer. Gary

I’m pretty confident on the sizing die, but I’m not sure if the seating die uses a different diameter and thread for the seating stem

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

In theory, yes. In reality, each die and especially each chamber is different, and is BEST, with specific and dedicated dies. That said, go for it. It's very likely to work for you. I'd let the gunsmith know your plans for when he chambers your bbls, now and in the future.

 

[padom]

Sizing die, yes, just change to the appropriate bushing. I've been doing it for years in 6BR and 22BR. I'm through 20+ barrels of 6BR and 4 or 5 22BR barrels...

Seating die, no. You need a dedicated 6BR and 22BR seating die. That's directly from LE Wilson. Unless your using something like the SAC Ultimate seating die which I was doing with different stems....

 

[urbanrifleman]

I use my le Wilson 6 BR Ackley seating die for my 22 BR ackley and it works perfectly. I also use my 6XC dies for 22 XC. Same thing works perfectly.

I've sold hundreds of dies and when it comes to a bushing die the caliber doesn't really matter All you do is change the bushing.

 

[padom]

I use my le Wilson 6 BR Ackley seating die for my 22 BR ackley and it works perfectly. I also use my 6XC dies for 22 XC. Same thing works perfectly.

I've sold hundreds of dies and when it comes to a bushing die the caliber doesn't really matter All you do is change the bushing.

I thought the same about the LE Wilson inline micrometer seater so I called them. They told me the 6 and 22 seaters are 100% different and don't work from a 100% concentricitu standpoint. I'm sure it "works" but they told me it's not correct/optimal.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I thought the same about the LE Wilson inline micrometer seater so I called them. They told me the 6 and 22 seaters are 100% different and don't work from a 100% concentricitu standpoint. I'm sure it "works" but they told me it's not correct/optimal.

100 percent different... 100 percent? That's a lot. Hmmm.

I suppose that their seaters have some attachment at the neck, but I can't imagine how they would be 100% different, since the chamber is exactly the same. I have the chamber drawings. I would imagine that they would have to open up the neck diameter somewhat to make sure that it would work with different types of brass.

Someone would have to show me how that works. I'm going to call "prove it" on that.

I don't think any particular seater adds extra concentricity bonuses. The brass is either straight or it's not. No seater is going to straighten brass.

But that's just me.

 

[padom]

100 percent different... 100 percent? That's a lot. Hmmm.

I suppose that their seaters have some attachment at the neck, but I can't imagine how they would be 100% different, since the chamber is exactly the same. I have the chamber drawings. I would imagine that they would have to open up the neck diameter somewhat to make sure that it would work with different types of brass.

Someone would have to show me how that works. I'm going to call "prove it" on that.

I don't think any particular seater adds extra concentricity bonuses. The brass is either straight or it's not. No seater is going to straighten brass.

But that's just me.

Then you should probably call Wilson like I did and have them explain it to you so you can understand the differences

 

[urbanrifleman]

Then you should probably call Wilson like I did and have them explain it to you so you can understand the differences

I sell Wilson dies, I talk to them all the time. I'm not sure that I would consider most of the people I talk to you on the phone to be expert shooters. Like I said, feel free to prove me wrong, (that final concentricity would be effected by downsizing). I just don't see it.

I use arborpress dies for the neck tension consistency, I don't believe that seating dies in the seating process can correct concentricity. So, to me, it wouldn't matter.

I was using a 6 dasher die to seat my 6BR ackley for 4 years. They didn't make a 6bra seating die. I would say that I was very satisfied with my consistency. It did not improve when I moved to a 6bra seater.

All that being said, I won't debate the point, you can believe whatever you want.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I sell Wilson dies, I talk to them all the time. I'm not sure that I would consider most of the people I talk to you on the phone to be expert shooters. Like I said, feel free to prove me wrong, (that final concentricity would be effected by downsizing). I just don't see it.

I use arborpress dies for the neck tension consistency, I don't believe that seating dies in the seating process can correct concentricity. So, to me, it wouldn't matter.

I was using a 6 dasher die to seat my 6BR ackley for 4 years. They didn't make a 6bra seating die. I would say that I was very satisfied with my consistency. It did not improve when I moved to a 6bra seater.

All that being said, I won't debate the point, you can believe whatever you want.

100% with you, 'On some of the people you talk to on there phone'. I have a lot of their products and dies but they are no longer my go to for those items nor do I go out of my way to promote them as I did for years.

 

[Mark W]

I thought the same about the LE Wilson inline micrometer seater so I called them. They told me the 6 and 22 seaters are 100% different and don't work from a 100% concentricitu standpoint. I'm sure it "works" but they told me it's not correct/optimal.

Several years ago I had a barrel chambered in 22 BRA. The reamer specs were the same as my 6 BRA with the exception of being a different caliber, so my 6 BRA bushing die worked perfectly. Being in a hurry to do some shooting, I worked up a load while seating bullets with the same 6 Dasher seating die that I used for my 6 BRA. Eventually I got around to ordering a Wilson 22 seating die blank and having my gunsmith ream it with the same reamer that was used for the chamber. I don’t check concentricity, but I couldn’t see a difference between the two seating dies on paper.

 

[urbanrifleman]

100% with you, 'On some of the people you talk to on there phone'. I have a lot of their products and dies but they are no longer my go to for those items nor do I go out of my way to promote them as I did for years.

I am not sure they are shooters, but they sure make great dies. Best I have tried. Smooth as glass seaters and sizers. None better for the money.

 

[AlNyhus]

When using a larger caliber seating stem on a smaller caliber, the type of seating stem (standard or VLD) can sometimes be more of an issue when you're using smaller diameter bullets than the stem was designed for. Depending on the bullet, the larger caliber VLD stem may work better with non-VLD nose profiles on smaller bullets....even if they aren't a VLD profile. And visa-versa.

I've got a couple Wilson seaters set up this way. Both took some seating stem juggling and a bit of lapping to bring the bullet run out around.

It's also good idea to check the I.D. of the neck area on a Wilson seater if you're going to do this. Too much clearance can defeat the purpose of a nice inline seater.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[DaveTooley]

You might be surprised at how well a larger caliber seating die will work if the basic case is the same. The bodies are the same so the case is pretty much centered and the ogive, regardless of bullet diameter is center in the stem.
As always YMMV

 

[urbanrifleman]

When using a larger caliber seating stem on a smaller caliber, the type of seating stem (standard or VLD) can sometimes be more of an issue when you're using smaller diameter bullets than the stem was designed for. Depending on the bullet, the larger caliber VLD stem may work better with non-VLD nose profiles on smaller bullets....even if they aren't a VLD profile. And visa-versa.

I've got a couple Wilson seaters set up this way. Both took some seating stem juggling and a bit of lapping to bring the bullet run out around.

It's also good idea to check the I.D. of the neck area on a Wilson seater if you're going to do this. Too much clearance can defeat the purpose of a nice inline seater.

Good shootin' -Al

I get what you are saying. I suppose ultimately I do not disagree with the premise of a tight neck seater would, at the most EXTREME condition of neck tension, reduce DEFORMING the brass... In some crazy hypothetical world where one were using insane amounts of neck tension. Most guys using Wilson seaters are using a thou or maybe two.

That being said, what clearance is "excessive"? Since people are using all different brass and reamers are specd all different ways. People turn necks.

6xc Tubb reamer is 278. Neck is 271ish. Is that "too much".

Holding the BULLET straight into the mouth is more important than touching the neck. Cases get bent by the bullet entering crooked.

So, there could be a case made for the die having a bullet guide section correct to the bullet diameter. I will correct myself on that. If they have a "freebore" that holds the bullet, that might help.

That being said, Wilson doesn't make a 22xc seater. I'm not sure they make a 22 bra either. Mine seem to work fine.

 

[urbanrifleman]

You might be surprised at how well a larger caliber seating die will work if the basic case is the same. The bodies are the same so the case is pretty much centered and the ogive, regardless of bullet diameter is center in the stem.
As always YMMV

This would be my practical experience.

 

[Slowrunning]

I've been making my own inline seating dies for a little bit now. With perfectly straight brass (.001" or so neck runout) I can seat a bullet with only the bottom .5" of the case held centered in the die. The rest of the body, neck, etc is completely unsupported. The bullet, in contact with the seating stem effectively centers the case. Loaded runout, measured at approx the ogive, easily remains under .002".

It doesn't matter how tight I hold the case shoulder or neck centered in the die, the more runout in the case neck, the less concentric the loaded rounds will be. The bullet is NOT going to straighten the neck and a bent neck IS going to cant the bullet to some extent, sometimes a lot in my experience.

Measuring concentricity of the bullet of a loaded round exaggerates the run out indicated by the case neck. Using a case neck with say .004" run out, that loaded round will probably be .006" ++.

That is all with relatively normal neck tension, .002 or so. High neck tension, say .005+ will cause some really unpredictable results when it comes to concentricity and seating depth.. in my experience.

Bullet - to - seating stem contact lower on the bullet is really helpful. I've used a seating stem with a .210" contact diameter on .223 and 6mm bullets with good results but wouldn't use it on anything bigger than 6mm. A 22 cal seating stem that contacts high on a .22 bullet might not be best for a 6mm bullet.

All that to say, if you're gonna care about concentricy, don't worry about measuring your loaded rounds until you have straight brass. The seating die can't be the culprit until the brass is straight.

Edit to add: OP - I would not hesitate to load 22br ammo with a 6br seating die as long as the seating stem fits the .223 bullets well. 6br in a 22br die will obviously not likely work unless the die manufacture is using the 6mm neck ID for both dies, which may be. For example, SAC dies center off the shoulder, which is why they work for a variety of "family" calibers. I believe their infinity die does so without applying much pressure to the shoulder, so in a sense the case kind of self-centers in the die, with the bullet helping in this.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A few years back now, I tied a world record at a night shoot,(100-200 BR) shooting a 220 Beggs, seating bullets with a 6 PPC seater die...fwiw. Didn't check runout at all or if I did, I have long since forgotten the numbers but the targets are proof enough for me. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever did by a 220 seater die for that thing and I plan to shoot a 220 for at least a few matches this season.

 

[urbanrifleman]

It doesn't matter how tight I hold the case shoulder or neck centered in the die, the more runout in the case neck, the less concentric the loaded rounds will be. The bullet is NOT going to straighten the neck and a bent neck IS going to cant the bullet to some extent, sometimes a lot in my experience.

I said the exact same thing.

You cannot straighten crooked brass with seaters.