6 XC vs 6.5 x 284

[HPMike800]

Mike:
It was not my intention be combative with my multiple guns comment. I was merely trying to point out the cost in lost shooting time. We now have more information, you are chasing high x-counts because your an f-class shooter. Since recoil should be less of an issue for F-Class,I would probably skip both and shoot a long throated 284Win. That's just my 0.02
Mike

 

[icepick]

Thats cool, Mike, I'm just glad people do put their two cents in.
Btw, i'm also designing my own bullets for the .50 so if anyone has some good insights on the topic, laff, let me know and we,ll start a new thread in a different forum area. I'm going through the ballistics books and half the book is numbers i'm not sure you could call it math but it is numbers.

Mike

Also, your right on the f-class bit. I shot a match just over a week ago. From 1000 yds i had on score 10 bulls, the problem with that is only 5 were "v" bulls giving me a 50.5...... I came in 8th, laff.

 

[Raptor]

I have to agree with Robert,Again) Like I said in my first post the 6XC does not shoot with a 6.5x284 at 1000yds in the real world. It looked great on paper when I had it built to replace my 6.5x284 but when I shot it at 1000yds I was really disappointed.

I did some shooting at 1300yds with it and my 260 with 123s and the 260 flat out shot the 6XC. These two are near ballistic twins as far as my elevation and wind dials go.

If you shoot in a vac um then all the computer comparisons are fine but if you have to shoot in the wind you need the heavier bullet. I also agree with going to a straight .284 for a good compromise. Great bullets, and good barrel life.

 

[JOHN708]

One reason the 6xc has trouble staying with the 6.5-284 is the BC of the 115 Tubb bullets. The Serria Infinity V6 program lists their BC at .555. The same as the Berger 105's. Which can easily be driven 50-100 fps faster in my 6brx than the 2950-3000fps that most shooters are driving the 115's at. I called Serria, and they confirmed the 115 listed in their ballistics program is the same bullet that Tubb sells.

John Skowron

 

[rhino]

Everything is a compromise for the most part when we are talking about F-class shooting.

Ideally we want a low recoil, high bc bullet, that is easy on the barrel, and make it to 1k.

Well, that doesn't really exist.

6mm calibers- Well you go from 6br to the 6mm Remington. You compromise between bore life and 1k performance squeezing out that couple hundred fps. Lower recoil, but in real life it doesn't fight the wind as good as a 6.5.

6.5mm calibers-well you go from the 6.5x47 lapua to the 6.5x.284. Again bore life or performance. It fights the wind better than the 6mm, but the 6.5x.284 eats barrels when using it with H4350. Recoil is more but manageable.

7mm calibers-Well you go from the 7-08-7 Rem Mag. Again bore life or performance. the 7mm fights the wind better the 6.5 when in its mag type offerings, but the recoil really becomes an issue when riding the bags.

So what do you choose? Many have choosen the 6.5 in the 6.5x.284 offering. Barrels are like car tires...they are replaceable and expendable.

I stumbled on the 6.5x55 really I did. But the more and more I learned from books, blogs, real life. The more and more the 6.5 swede shined. It fights nicely between the 260 remington and the 6.5x.284 and you can drive it to 3000 fps in a long barrel on a modern action. The brass is cheaper and your pushing the same bullets at the same speed.

RHINOUT!

 

[GermanS1]

Mike, go for the 6XC and enjoy it. Here's some food for thought: http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/salazar-captures-az-1000-yard-title-with-6xc/

Now, I agree with Robert when he said that cartridges don't win matches. I believe that the best thing a cartridge can give you is reliable accuracy at the intended distance combined with wind drift that doesn't put you at a significant disadvantage,notice I didn't say it has to be less drift on paper). The wrong cartridge will keep you from winning, the best cartridge will merely allow you a chance to display your ability,for better or worse).

Steve is right, I sold all my 6.5-284 equipment and I don't usually sell much. The reasons for me were fairly simple: the 6XC was doing the job I expected of it better than the 6.5-284 and I didn't see anything on the horizon that would change that. As it turns out, the unexpected development,Reloder 17) might just make the 6XC even better.

So what do I expect from the 6XC or any LR cartridge? In order: Accuracy, Reliability,70 shot accuracy); Reasonable Wind Drift; Low Recoil.

The first factor, accuracy seems obvious, but I'll quantify it a bit. I don't shoot from a bench or F-Class, if I tried, I would stink at it - I'm a prone iron-sight shooter. I expect a good cartridge/load to reliably give me 200-15X at 500 and 600 yards and 200-12X at 1000 yards prone with irons. The 6XC does this, so it's good enough in that department. Once I get a load that will do this, I don't fool with it much more. I consider those scores "par" a mental concept that we can deal with another time.

The second factor, Reliable Accuracy, means just that. The cartridge/load can't blow up bullets, it can't foul the barrel so that the last 10 shots are worse than the first 10 shots and it can't be finicky in temperature changes. We shoot in 40 degrees and 115 degrees here in the Valley of the Sun and I don't like to have "seasonal loads".

The third factor is Reasonable Wind Drift. My rifles all have windage knobs and I know where they are located. So whether a rifle drifts a few inches more or a few inches less in a given wind condition at 1000 yards is not something I'm going to lose any sleep over. Once you shoot a given cartridge a bit you should develop a good feel for what it takes in a given condition. You don't want to be cranking on twice the windage of your neighbor, but if he has 7 minutes on the sight and you have 7 and a half, who cares... I look at wind drift figures a bit differently than many people, I want to see differences for a 2 mph wind because that's about the biggest change which I think a reasonably good shooter might miss between getting off the spotting scope and breaking the shot.

My fourth factor is Low Recoil. I shoot a 30-06 at a lot of matches and enjoy it, recoil per se is not a problem. However, in important matches I have a significant preference for low recoil for a few reasons. First, if conditions are good I prefer to shoot very fast and a low recoiling rifle lets me do that without it shifting in my shoulder or creating a need to rebuild the position. Secondly, and more subtly, a shot that breaks with a bit of movement in the rifle will hit closer to center on a low recoiling rifle; they are more forgiving of human error.

No cartridge is a guarantee of success. However, if you look at match results over the past 15 years or so in long-range prone shooting, you'll see a distinct trend toward smaller, lower recoiling cartridges. Is the 6 XC a step too far? I don't think so, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if everyone else thought so.

 

[flatlander]

I feel German has summed it up nicely - and I've come to a similar conclusion for my LR rifles. I've shot 1000yd. matches with cartridges ranging from 223 w/JLK90s to the straight 284W. with 180JLKs, also including the 6 Dasher, 6x47L, and 6.5x55. It's hard to overlook the accuracy of the Dasher with 105s, but the 6x47 comes close, and with either of the 115s at over 3000fps, it'll stay right with a 6.5/142 at 3050fps in the wind out to 1000,according to Sierra Infinity V.6).

The biggest difference between the 6x47 & 6XC is the small primer pocket in the Lapua case. Case shape, proportion, and size are nearly identical - I haven't had a XC case to check case capacity,and that'll vary considerably, depending on whether you've formed them from 22-250, or which generation of Tubb-supplied cases you're using), but estimate there's not more than a grain weight difference between the two.

The 284 with 180s is the winner in the wind - of the cartridges I've chambered for - but recoil is considerably higher, especially after getting used to shooting a 14.25lb. Dasher or 6x47. Both my 284s weigh 15.25lbs., and that's about all the weight I want on my left elbow. The Robertson H&H stock on the BAT-action rifle is pretty comfortable to shoot over the course of a 3x1000, but the McMillan A5 on the Rem.700 in 284 will punish your jaw if you run the adjustable cheekpiece up even a little too far. I've been doing some testing with RL17 this past week with 180s in both rifles off the bench, and am getting 'acclimated' to the recoil of the 284 again, after a long lay-off. It's even easier to deal with in prone, with a sweatshirt & shooting coat to help cushion the shoulder. But - at least in my case, I'd be fooling myself if I didn't admit that it's easier to concentrate on trigger control & sight alignment with the 6.5x55, and easier still with either of the 6s.

Look at it this way - the Palma guys are shooting stubby little 30cal. 155s and shooting good scores at 1000 with them. That's all they shoot, and they know how much wind to put on the sights with those bullets. Get yourself a good rifle in 6XC or 6x47 or 6 Dasher, shoot it a lot, and you'll be happy and enjoy your LR prone shooting.

 

[DukeDuke]

GREAT POST GERMAN!!!

 

[rhino]

Mike Roderich,Sp) MIker over on the hide used to have or still has a 30-378 prone rifle. Sling and coat he said it wasn't bad.

Of course the shooters used to tell him he shoot, crawl foward 6 inches and shoot..etc.

I watched a guy with a 6br prone rifle do well on a relatively calm day at W-port.

Then again on a typical day everyone scratches their heads. Only true indicator I have found is the other shooters targets

Whatever you consider for a cartridage you'll always have to balance performance vs. barrel life. Rarely if ever does a cartridage give you both.

RHINOUT!

 

[LittlefieldK]

I have to agree with Robert,Again) Like I said in my first post the 6XC does not shoot with a 6.5x284 at 1000yds in the real world.

I also agree; the 6XC works great on paper and in mild to moderate wind, but when it gets nasty, the 6.5-284, 7s and 300 mags come into their own.

I have a couple of 6XC course rifles, both are incredibly accurate, but when we tried one of them at Rattlesnake in high wind those little bullets,105 VLD at 2950 fps) were blown all over. I have not tried the 115 VLD or the DTAC bullets yet and probably won't given the availability of 6.5-284 and 300 win mag prone rifles.

Here in the NW we can shoot a prone mid-range match almost every weekend, but we only get 3 or 4 local long range matches a year. So I frequently recommend selecting the 6XC as the compromise caliber to choose for your 2nd prone rifle,a Palma rifle should be the first choice). The reasons are as follows; Barrel life is better then a 6.5-284,but worse then a 6BR). The 6XC has the legs to shoot well at 1000, yet the recoil is light and the accuracy is competitive with the 6BR in the mid range matches.

In assembling my version of the ideal battery of prone competition rifles, I went with three Quadlocks, all in Cloward prone stocks: First a Palma rifle, then a 6.5-284 for use at Rattlesnake in the high wind and for the Wimbledon and Leech cup. For the third rifle, Jim will be chambering a barrel in 6BR on what is currently a backup Palma rifle,to cover all of those midrange matches). We also have a 40x which we plan to set up in a Cloward prone stock for winter prone small bore training,David is currently using a H&R M12 in an Elk Ridge prone stock).

This year at Perry we had some pretty challenging conditions; Junior Nick Mowrer used a 6BR,107 SMK at about 2850) for 1000 yard match 1 and match 2 with less then acceptable results. He then switched to our backup Palma rifle for the rest of the competition and he won every junior award in sight,including making the shoot off with a 199-7x in the Andrus).

John Whidden won the LR aggregate and the Leech; I assume he was shooting his 243 Winchester, (although I don't know that for sure). I personally didn't see or talk to anyone who used a 6mm successfully,aside from Mr. Whidden).

I don't know why the real world performance is not in sync with the paper ballistics, but based on my observations of the traces at Rattlesnake, the 6.5-284 has a significant leg up in high wind.

 

[Raptor]

Ken,
Our results are exactly the same. I was out shooting again this last weekend at 800,900,1000yds. I was shooting my 260 with 123s, 6,5x55 with 139s, and my 243 with 107s.

The 6.5s just flat shoot tighter and better in the wind. I had a good 7mph full value wind for most the morning with a few gusts thrown in. This is what I call a good day for shooting out here in South Dak.

The 139s shot the best folowed by the 123s then the 6MM. My 6MM and the 260 with the 123s use exactly the same dials for wind and elevation to within a 1/2MOA depending on the day.

 

[TonyR]

German.
Do you have an opinion on the 6XC compared to the 6X47L? I guess the biggest difference is the size of the primer. Do you think there is any advantage with one sized primer or the other?
Thanks
Tony

 

[rhino]

Many are chambering to 6x47 Lapua because of the quality brass. I seen one shoot at Forbes at it did a great job with the 108 bergers.

RHINOUT!

 

[GermanS1]

Tony, from what I've seen in matches, both cartridges,6XC and 6x47 Lapua) are perfectly capable of winning at any distance. Pete Church uses the 6x47 and when we shoot side by side its impossible to say that any difference between us is attributable to the cartridge. I think the Norma 6XC brass is of first class quality, there is nothing about it that I would change and the same can be said for the Lapua brass.

As to the small primer versus the large primer, that's an interesting question. My testing repeatedly shows that in cases of this size the primer that generates the lowest pressures and velocities generally does best. That would tend to indicate that the small primer case would have an advantage. However, the Russian primers, even the large ones, produce such a mild flame and low pressures that I suspect there isn't enough difference between the cases,assuming these primers are used) to worry about.

I have some Remington small primer .308 cases and if I get real ambitious or curious, I might reform some to 6XC just to compare pressure and velocity with the large primer cases, but I don't feel that ambitious right now!

 

[JOHN708]

I've shot many long range matches at Butner in any-any classification. Over the years I've been squadded with many high master shooters, including myself. I see no real world difference in scores between my 6brx, shooting 105's at 3050+ fps and the 6.5-284's shooting the usual 142 gr mk load. When questioning my fellow shooters, we essentially have the same windage on the gun and are shading the same for the given wind condition. During last yr's state championship, during one of the any-any relays at 1000 yd's, I had the high score, beating out several former national champions, with a 196. The winds were blowing, gusting at 25mph. When I loose, it's not because I didn't shoot the mag. with the least wind drift, it's because I blew the shot or the wind call.

John Skowron

 

[memilanuk]

John,

What a concept. Pick a cartridge, build the gun and shoot it enough to actually learn to call the wind - rather than wishing for a 'laser' to cut through the wind for ya.

Good shooting, BTW.

Monte

 

[mysticplayer]

icepick, nice to see another Canuck on the board. For me, I shoot a 6.5 Mystic,my version of the 260improved) and 139gr Lapua.

I have now built 4 rifles and the performance is very consistent.

I chose the 6.5 because it does offer some benefits in the wind AND it cuts a bigger hole. Since we are shooting for score, that little bit might just gain you a V every now and then. I shoot with guys that use short 308's for that reason.

As for wind drift, I am certainly not as good as the many shooters on this board so every ballistic advantage I can get helps. The 6.5 might only drift 1/4" or 1" less given a small gust of wind but that is the difference between one scoring ring and another.

The 6.5 is so much more forgiving in the wind. I also shoot a 223 so know all about wind bouncing you around. Recoil is definitely more but in a 10KG rifle, I can handle it nicely.

I just finished a 6 Mystic which is a 243AI headspaced off 22/250 brass. The case is bigger then either the XC or Lapua. Performance is similar at lower pressures.

One thing that I don't want is a load that is peaky. A change in ambient temp and the accuracy goes south or actions lock up. I am happy to give up a bit of velocity for piece of mind.

A 6mm has to be run hard to keep up with a 6.5. For many it works, but it is not a style I prefer.

In fact, I have slowed my loads down a smidge because the gain in accuracy actually reduces the amount of dispersion I used to blame on conditions. I went from 2910/2920fps,I can get close to 3000fps in 30" pipes) to 2860fps. ES/SD are now single digits and there simply is no vertical at 300m. It can shoot cloverleafs at 200yds if I dope the wind.

It is wonderfully driveable which is what helps me put them in the X ring. Barrel life is also significantly better then the 6.5-284. I can get about 1500rds of X ring accuracy.

Being up north, consider the availability of components. I am hoping to resolve that in short order but right now, who stocks 6XC brass or heavy 6mm Bergers/JLK's/Sierra/Tubbs, RE17. Building a rifle that you can't feed seems silly.

I can find all I need for my 6.5 quite easily.

Jerry