Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Yep, I understand the thought process. Just don’t agree and that's ok!
6 brai tuner test
- Thread starter FTRinTexas
- Start date
I’m not trying to overthink anything, I’m asking questions about tuners 101 that I thought you could provide some direction.
Kinda sorry I asked.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
You don't you want direction that conflicts with your thoughts. I have been using tuners for 15 or so years with quite a few barrels. I have told you what had worked for me. Why ask if you don't want to consider experience from others. Not ideas, not I read, not my third cousins pool boy told me, but real experience. Doesn't t mean you need to agree with out trying it yourself but to just disregard it, not a good way to learn. This is in regards to JFrank not Tim. If I stepped on your toes but saying many don't have a tuning process then you are not paying attention to posts that appear everyday. Good luck, you will need luck I think.
Jeff , I asked a question of you because of your experience. I wasn’t disagreeing at all I was trying to learn something.
I’ve struggled with a response a couple times and deleted my thoughts at least twice preferring to focus on positives, it shouldn’t be a crime to ask a follow up question but for some reason that just sends you into a defensive posture that I just don’t understand. Maybe you could work on your communication skills without patronizing. It’s not that hard if you practice, I’ve been asked the same questions ( not necessarily gun related ) three of four different ways and still find a way to answer the question without getting upset or defensive about it. In my business team building started with coaching and encouragement and having a little patience.
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Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
It’s simple. Tune a barrel with the tuner on screwed all the way in and then screwed out to the zero setting. With a ppc, tune is shooting 5 shot groups agging at least in the mid .1s at 100 yards. Shoot three shot front zero setting and then turn the Ezell tuner out one mark at a time and shoot three shot groups for a full revolution of the tuner. Preferably side by side.
You will easily see tune come in and go out and, learn more about tuners than you ever will typing about them on the internet.
You will easily see tune come in and go out and, learn more about tuners than you ever will typing about them on the internet.
R.Morehouse
Gold $$ Contributor
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...............There It Is..............^^^^^^^^^^^
Take a rimfire target with multiple targets on it, then take a straight edge and draw a crosshair through all of them. This will help you get a more precise read on what is going on.....I did this at 100yds. to see how it cycles in and out of tune.......It will put a smile on your face.
Regards
Rick
Take a rimfire target with multiple targets on it, then take a straight edge and draw a crosshair through all of them. This will help you get a more precise read on what is going on.....I did this at 100yds. to see how it cycles in and out of tune.......It will put a smile on your face.
Regards
Rick
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Here is a copy from a post in 2012 about using a Bukys tuner and I used it for my Australian made version/copy.
armamentsbydesign.com.au
Bruno's in Phoenix carries them:
I followed the directions from the man himself and it worked exactly right and helped me get the tune with less wasted shots with the load that I knew was a good one anyway.
Had 3 shots from a 6BR at 100 meters in one hole after 34 rds and locked down the tuner and have not touched it since.
Have since had 5 rds at 100 in .254" Ten shots at 300 meters for 100.9 Twenty at 600yds for 200.14 so I know that it works.
"For those of you that are interested in stepping up your Benchrest game here are instructions on how to utilize a Bukys snubber/tuner from the man himself."
How I use my TSI tuners
First a little information about the tuner ---
The ID threads are 7/8 – 32 TPI or .875-32 TPI
I thread about 1” to 1 ¼ “of the muzzle, depending mostly on how I feel that particular day.
DO NOT try to remove the large nut that holds the rubber insert on, -------- It is not intended to be removed ever.
The way I use my tuners.
1. I set the gun up to accept the tuner – (thread the muzzle end of your barrel)
2. Put the rifle together and do not install the tuner
3. Go to the range and tune the rifle as you normally would, make it shoot as good as you can
4. Then on the same day, and in the same conditions, install the Tuner. Use a nice heavy grease on the threads and apply this grease to both the tuner ID threads and the barrel OD threads. ( I use bolt lug lube). Screw it all the way on the barrel till it stops against the shoulder then back if off at least half of a turn and lock it down. This way you only have one way to go while tuning --- you can’t go further on the barrel as you will hit the shoulder quickly.
5. I then load up whatever shot well without the tuner on the gun, and shoot a 3 shot group
6. If the rifle sticks them, (you got lucky) mark that spot with a felt tip or such and shoot it again except I would shoot a 5 shot group, If I wasn’t fooled and it stuck them again I would move the tuner out 1/8 of a turn and shoot it again If it still sticks, I would continue to move the tuner out 1/8 turn at a time and shoot 3 shot groups till it quit sticking.
7. Then I would put the tuner in the middle of where it was sticking, lock it down, and never move it again.
8. If the rifle tries to go out of tune I would change powder charge just as if there was no tuner on the rifle.
9. If the rifle shoots big after installing the tuner on the muzzle, (this is the norm) just shoot 3 shot groups and start turning the tuner out 1/8 turn at a time till you find the area where it will stick them. I find that the rifle will usually come into tune before you have made one complete turn, but no big deal if you have to go a little more than one turn.
10. I try to find an area where the tuner can be turned thru about three 1/8 turn moves and still shoot. As you move the tuner out you will find that there are areas where the rifle will shoot good in a very small spot but when you turn the tuner another 1/8 turn it will go big on you. Try to find a broader area to leave the tuner --- life will be better if you can find an area where you can make the 3 moves and the rifle continues to shoot well.
In my experience with these things, I think, I’ve never seen a barrel that actually did go to shooting better because of a tuner. What I think the tuner dose do is help to keep your rifle in tune thru a larger range. I think that you will see that your rifle stays in tune better thru atmospheric changes than it would without a tuner. ??? I could be all wet about all of this though---
Let me know what you think, after you’ve had a chance to mess with it --- any questions, email or call—713-299-9420
Good luck, Gene
FYI
Just wanted to let all of you know that I posted the tuner instruction sheet and not Gene b. You'll receive a copy instructions with every tuner purchase.
Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
Barrel Tuner – Rubber Sleeve Style (Type A) - Armaments By Design Pty Ltd | Australian Firearm Accessory Manufacturer
Barrel Tuner - EDPM Rubber Sleeve (Type A)
armamentsbydesign.com.au
Had 3 shots from a 6BR at 100 meters in one hole after 34 rds and locked down the tuner and have not touched it since.
Have since had 5 rds at 100 in .254" Ten shots at 300 meters for 100.9 Twenty at 600yds for 200.14 so I know that it works.
"For those of you that are interested in stepping up your Benchrest game here are instructions on how to utilize a Bukys snubber/tuner from the man himself."
How I use my TSI tuners
First a little information about the tuner ---
The ID threads are 7/8 – 32 TPI or .875-32 TPI
I thread about 1” to 1 ¼ “of the muzzle, depending mostly on how I feel that particular day.
DO NOT try to remove the large nut that holds the rubber insert on, -------- It is not intended to be removed ever.
The way I use my tuners.
1. I set the gun up to accept the tuner – (thread the muzzle end of your barrel)
2. Put the rifle together and do not install the tuner
3. Go to the range and tune the rifle as you normally would, make it shoot as good as you can
4. Then on the same day, and in the same conditions, install the Tuner. Use a nice heavy grease on the threads and apply this grease to both the tuner ID threads and the barrel OD threads. ( I use bolt lug lube). Screw it all the way on the barrel till it stops against the shoulder then back if off at least half of a turn and lock it down. This way you only have one way to go while tuning --- you can’t go further on the barrel as you will hit the shoulder quickly.
5. I then load up whatever shot well without the tuner on the gun, and shoot a 3 shot group
6. If the rifle sticks them, (you got lucky) mark that spot with a felt tip or such and shoot it again except I would shoot a 5 shot group, If I wasn’t fooled and it stuck them again I would move the tuner out 1/8 of a turn and shoot it again If it still sticks, I would continue to move the tuner out 1/8 turn at a time and shoot 3 shot groups till it quit sticking.
7. Then I would put the tuner in the middle of where it was sticking, lock it down, and never move it again.
8. If the rifle tries to go out of tune I would change powder charge just as if there was no tuner on the rifle.
9. If the rifle shoots big after installing the tuner on the muzzle, (this is the norm) just shoot 3 shot groups and start turning the tuner out 1/8 turn at a time till you find the area where it will stick them. I find that the rifle will usually come into tune before you have made one complete turn, but no big deal if you have to go a little more than one turn.
10. I try to find an area where the tuner can be turned thru about three 1/8 turn moves and still shoot. As you move the tuner out you will find that there are areas where the rifle will shoot good in a very small spot but when you turn the tuner another 1/8 turn it will go big on you. Try to find a broader area to leave the tuner --- life will be better if you can find an area where you can make the 3 moves and the rifle continues to shoot well.
In my experience with these things, I think, I’ve never seen a barrel that actually did go to shooting better because of a tuner. What I think the tuner dose do is help to keep your rifle in tune thru a larger range. I think that you will see that your rifle stays in tune better thru atmospheric changes than it would without a tuner. ??? I could be all wet about all of this though---
Let me know what you think, after you’ve had a chance to mess with it --- any questions, email or call—713-299-9420
Good luck, Gene
FYI
Just wanted to let all of you know that I posted the tuner instruction sheet and not Gene b. You'll receive a copy instructions with every tuner purchase.
Last edited: Feb 1, 2012
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Many ways to accomplish this. Never realized how little I really knew about tuning a tuner. Lol. Good read guys!
Paul
Paul
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
'Sorry I asked', your quote, triggered my response. Not looking to argue but offering what has worked for me over an extended period of experience. I hope it helps. Yes, as I get older I have less tolerance. I see used tuners on sell here very often. That tells me they are being used incorrectly so yes there is a problem out there with the communications on tuners and their use. They are not a majic bullet but a tool if properly learned and used can help you achieve consistent results with minimal rounds expanded which if you have s good barrel to me is of primary concern. This is not directed at you but in general.....Today everyone wants an easy button with no thought or work needed. Funny thing I think a tuner used properly comes pretty close to an easy button. Try what I told you, you just might get a pleasant surprise. Or you can blunder along and miss out on a great tool.
I think some of the confusion comes from things like the post above on the Bukys tuner. He had his method but used his tuner in conjunction with changing powder charge. He found a spot and left it there but continued to tune using powder charge at matches. Hey, if it works for you, great, but I think the vast majority have moved passed that and utilize a tuner for more than just a dampener.
There is also the aspect that, not every tuner SHOULD be used exactly like the next. So, with one tuner, you might be right to move it 5 marks at a time, while others, no more than a single mark at a time.
So, what ya often have is people speaking different languages but for the most part..saying the same thing.
With any tuner, step one is to quantify the value on target of each increment. Without knowing this all important info, you're simply guessing and that will invariably end in frustration. You absolutely MUST know what each increment does to group size and shape.
This is where both Hornady and Litz went terribly wrong in their "tests". God only knows how either of them came to the conclusion to move in full "sweeps" or revolutions at a time. So then we have respected people in the sport claiming they don't work at all. I've got news for them...They work, just not the way they think or tested them. I could've predicted their results and saved them a lot of time and money if they had told me their proposed test procedure beforehand. It was simply GIGO, which made the results very predictable. They're all smart guys and this does not diminish that fact. But no matter their education level, it does not replace experience and testing. Maybe at some point it will and we will all gain from their knowledge and resources. For now, I think they would better serve themselves and the shooting community if they focused more on how they DO work than trying to disprove them. That means, they're gonna have to sit down with myself or someone else with a great deal of experience making tuners work, first...then reverse engineer them, starting with a proven test procedure for tuning, period, rather than randomly moving one and expecting any kind of reliable and repeatable results. In this case, at least for now, experience trumps education but their education and resources could help us all in the end.
In the end, most shooters don't care how tuners do what they do but most would greatly benefit and want to learn how to simply use them to their advantage. The process is simple but it starts with knowing the value of each increment. Without that, with any tuner, even the best or the smartest or the most experienced...whatever...is simply guessing. Once that's established, you can start making progress toward tuning using a tuner.
I ask this question of people who start with moving their tuner in larger increments. The question is simply why did you pick that number of marks between adjustments? If the answer isn't very clear, or if they say something like, "I just started that way"..it's very clear that they are off to a bad start, often due to bad information garnered somewhere along the way, or just an assumption. Problem is, that gets people lost and confused from the very start.
My test, that some refer to as a sine wave test, is very simple but that test is solid gold, IMHO. It shows you five very important things and is pretty much all you need to know to use a tuner. It shows..
1)The value of each mark, on the target
2)How many marks from in tune to completely out of tune
3)Top of bbl swing and bottom of bbl swing
4)Group shape and size(that's a biggie because everything is based on group size and shape)
5)Which way to move the tuner
There is also the aspect that, not every tuner SHOULD be used exactly like the next. So, with one tuner, you might be right to move it 5 marks at a time, while others, no more than a single mark at a time.
So, what ya often have is people speaking different languages but for the most part..saying the same thing.
With any tuner, step one is to quantify the value on target of each increment. Without knowing this all important info, you're simply guessing and that will invariably end in frustration. You absolutely MUST know what each increment does to group size and shape.
This is where both Hornady and Litz went terribly wrong in their "tests". God only knows how either of them came to the conclusion to move in full "sweeps" or revolutions at a time. So then we have respected people in the sport claiming they don't work at all. I've got news for them...They work, just not the way they think or tested them. I could've predicted their results and saved them a lot of time and money if they had told me their proposed test procedure beforehand. It was simply GIGO, which made the results very predictable. They're all smart guys and this does not diminish that fact. But no matter their education level, it does not replace experience and testing. Maybe at some point it will and we will all gain from their knowledge and resources. For now, I think they would better serve themselves and the shooting community if they focused more on how they DO work than trying to disprove them. That means, they're gonna have to sit down with myself or someone else with a great deal of experience making tuners work, first...then reverse engineer them, starting with a proven test procedure for tuning, period, rather than randomly moving one and expecting any kind of reliable and repeatable results. In this case, at least for now, experience trumps education but their education and resources could help us all in the end.
In the end, most shooters don't care how tuners do what they do but most would greatly benefit and want to learn how to simply use them to their advantage. The process is simple but it starts with knowing the value of each increment. Without that, with any tuner, even the best or the smartest or the most experienced...whatever...is simply guessing. Once that's established, you can start making progress toward tuning using a tuner.
I ask this question of people who start with moving their tuner in larger increments. The question is simply why did you pick that number of marks between adjustments? If the answer isn't very clear, or if they say something like, "I just started that way"..it's very clear that they are off to a bad start, often due to bad information garnered somewhere along the way, or just an assumption. Problem is, that gets people lost and confused from the very start.
My test, that some refer to as a sine wave test, is very simple but that test is solid gold, IMHO. It shows you five very important things and is pretty much all you need to know to use a tuner. It shows..
1)The value of each mark, on the target
2)How many marks from in tune to completely out of tune
3)Top of bbl swing and bottom of bbl swing
4)Group shape and size(that's a biggie because everything is based on group size and shape)
5)Which way to move the tuner
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Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
I went down the tuner road a few years ago.......... I have posted lots of info as I traveled along my tuner journey.
here is one such post that may be helpful.
Below is another example with my 300 WSM.
The method I use
1.) Screw the tuner all the way on and then bring it back to zero at your witness mark (at least a half revolution).
2.) Tune the rifle
3.) shoot two or three shot groups at each mark, at least 5 or 6 marks either side of tune. I really learned a lot with my first tuner when I shot three shot groups at the 8 marks before and 8 after "tune" (3x17). It gave me confidence that when I seen a particular group "shape" I knew where I was, and could get back to tune. As a wildland firefighter, it was like seeing and recognizing a landmark when in new county.... with your handy Silva Ranger compass, you could plot your current location, and get to where you are headed.
I take the above note book with me to matches and range tuning sessions. I have dividers and a separate section for each rifle.
I now have tuners on every bench rifle I own.
CW
here is one such post that may be helpful.
Shout out to Mike Ezell
I was at a 600 yard IBS match yesterday and my first two targets were not what I was expecting. I had spent time at the range the two weekends prior and had a load nailed down. I was going to the range early expecting the temps for the Jan match to be a bit cooler. My first two targets were all...
forum.accurateshooter.com
Below is another example with my 300 WSM.
The method I use
1.) Screw the tuner all the way on and then bring it back to zero at your witness mark (at least a half revolution).
2.) Tune the rifle
3.) shoot two or three shot groups at each mark, at least 5 or 6 marks either side of tune. I really learned a lot with my first tuner when I shot three shot groups at the 8 marks before and 8 after "tune" (3x17). It gave me confidence that when I seen a particular group "shape" I knew where I was, and could get back to tune. As a wildland firefighter, it was like seeing and recognizing a landmark when in new county.... with your handy Silva Ranger compass, you could plot your current location, and get to where you are headed.
I take the above note book with me to matches and range tuning sessions. I have dividers and a separate section for each rifle.
I now have tuners on every bench rifle I own.
CW
Thanks Clay. My test is 15 three shot groups at 100 yards, with flags, best load, the whole shebang. You've gotta be able to trust every shot. So if you know you pulled the trigger in a switch, mark that shot and fire again. It's about reading group shapes, as you well noted in your post. But with 3 shot groups, one bad shot can really change the shape of a group. The only alternative is 5 shot groups and nobody wants that if we can help it. You bring up a point with only 2 shot groups. That's fine after you know what you're looking for but for the initial tuner test, I really consider 3 as minimum. Again, it's about shape, even more to me than size. Once you know what your gun does and what to expect from it and related to the setting, yes, you can tell a lot with 2 shots.
It really is amazing how predictable the shapes are isn't it? That may be the coolest and most important aspect to tuning. So predictable, I tell people what to look for in terms of shape as they progress one number at a time...just as you allude to doing in your post. Good job, my friend! That's the magic right there.
Ya gotta put things in perspective here. Tuners aren't magic at all. Group shooters have tuned with powder charge by reading group shapes for ages and ages now. Same difference. But given that, lets say no tuner...groups at 100 show a bullet hole or a tad more of straight vertical..how much do you change your powder charge? Well, IME, with a ppc and n133 that's often about .3 of a grain of powder. On my tuner, that's about 1 mark. I wouldn't just guess and go up 3 full grains of powder to fix it and I wouldn't turn the tuner in a full revolution either. Kinda the same thing! The key is knowing how much or how far. It's much easier than it sounds even but that's it in a nutshell. Also, again to put things into perspective and to point to how simple it is...fully out of tune is very typically only about 4 marks on most short range barrels, so you really just have to recognize 4 shapes. This is with MY tuner. As I said above, that mark value may very well be different with a different make of tuner.
Thanks Clay! I wasn't trying to correct you or anything, just trying to add to what you said so it's clearer to some is all.
I recently had a phone die and lost a bunch of pics or I'd post a pic of my test target. I will say that at least when starting out...every little bitty detail of the test is important to reading the target, right down to making your own target. It helps a lot to seeing the things we're looking for that I mentioned in my last post.
I've sent that test target to several people on here. Would someone please post the unfired test target or send it to my cell phone. It would be of help to me. Thanks !--Mike
I believe this is what you are referring to Mike.
Attachments
Yes sir Mr Bill! That's it exactly. Not a huge deal to make another one but I've been pretty wide open for a while and that's a big help. I'll save it to my computer and send it to my phone, so it'll be handy again.
That test target is solid gold to me at least. With my tuner, if you shoot that target, I mean exactly like that...down to the smallest detail, it shows everything one needs to know to run my tuner. Other tuners, you still have to establish mark values for but I've done that legwork on all of my models already. The tuners are marked/engraved accordingly. You can't just make a tuner and randomly choose mark values/thread pitches...or shouldn't IMO.
The idea beyond what I previously mentioned is to take the bbl through a little more than a complete nodal cycle. That being, from completely in tune, to completely out of tune and back in again. The sine wave aspect will show top and bottom sweet spots at what are technically defined as anti-noeds, which IS where we want bullet exit to happen.
Having mass at the muzzle, be it fixed or moveable, affects both frequency and amplitude of vibration. A lower frequency still repeats, ie with a tuner, it'll just be very slightly further between anti-nodes.(where we want bullet exit to occur)
No added mass at the end(no tuner), and it still repeats just like before but at a higher frequency...just slightly more narrow spacing between anti-nodes. That's why doing initial load workup works just fine both ways..both with or without the tuner attached. I just prefer to do my development with the tuner attached, as I'll be shooting it going forward. But yes...both ways do in fact work and that's why.
Fwiw I'll mention this for perspective purposes. A typical 21-24" LV or HV contour bbl will likely be about 4 marks from completely in tune to all the way out. A typical long range barrel that is commonly 28-30 inches long and from HV to 1.250 straight, is about five marks from all the way in, to all the way out of tune. So the difference is way smaller than people often assume it would be, with those very common contours and configurations.
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Bill, thank you for the likes. I keep adding to my post. I'll stop now. I predicted maybe 9-10 years ago that tuners would be like every other item of a custom build that you ask a smith to do for you. You'd ask for a certain make/model of action, stock, barrel, trigger and TUNER. We're pretty much there NOW...or close to it, amongst the serious BR crowd and the other disciplines like PRS are not far behind at all. They've been around. They've been proven to work. What we lack is all being on the same page regarding comunication and testing protocols between makes. I think a version of my test is just that...a standardization of tuner testing model.
I've never called out other tuner makers and I never, ever talk down about their product. But I catch a lot of flack for sharing info freely on here that has cost me a ton of time and money.
I'd like to see other makers jump in this thread and explain their product with testing results and protocols for their tuners, rather than sitting on their hands during these discussions. Come on out and join the fun gentlemen! This has been a respectful and informative tuner thread. I'd like to see Eric speak up and explain what and why the op should do rather than sitting back in the E-Z chair watching. I feel obligated, so I do it because these things become bout tuners in general. But this thread is about a different model and the owner of this tuner should be able to ask these questions here and get answers. That's my honest thought on the matter. Eric, please help this guy and help us to determine tuning differences between say yours and mine, at least. It would be nice if we could discuss various tuners as a group on here, along with myself and all or most makers that have come onto the scene.
Bottom line is, I've tried to stay between the lines as far as tuners go in general but the op's question is about Eric's tuner. A good product, no doubt about that.
Don't be skeered to jump in here. I think most everyone would like to hear your views and I'm sure that most of our views are at least very similar. Aaron, Tim, Eric..other makers? There really are no secrets to using tuners.
I'd like to see other makers jump in this thread and explain their product with testing results and protocols for their tuners, rather than sitting on their hands during these discussions. Come on out and join the fun gentlemen! This has been a respectful and informative tuner thread. I'd like to see Eric speak up and explain what and why the op should do rather than sitting back in the E-Z chair watching. I feel obligated, so I do it because these things become bout tuners in general. But this thread is about a different model and the owner of this tuner should be able to ask these questions here and get answers. That's my honest thought on the matter. Eric, please help this guy and help us to determine tuning differences between say yours and mine, at least. It would be nice if we could discuss various tuners as a group on here, along with myself and all or most makers that have come onto the scene.
Bottom line is, I've tried to stay between the lines as far as tuners go in general but the op's question is about Eric's tuner. A good product, no doubt about that.
Don't be skeered to jump in here. I think most everyone would like to hear your views and I'm sure that most of our views are at least very similar. Aaron, Tim, Eric..other makers? There really are no secrets to using tuners.
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Absolutely agree 100%. Erik makes a good tuner and gives good directions on the web-site but I feel it would help if he did discussions like this to help out. I understand he has a "paid" forum where tuners are probably discussed in detail. However, that does no good for folks who don't feel the need to pay for the info.
Maybe he'll jump in at some point. It'd be nice to discuss differences between designs like mark values etc. Not that one's better or worse than the other or any of that but there are differences in how to use them best and I think everyone would benefit from hearing things like this from the makers. I know the value of each mark on my tuner and how far between sweet spots. That's just very necessary info imho. I describe group shapes and get into those details with every order. As more and more tuner makers have come on line since I started testing and making them, it's nearly impossible to know the mark increments and how they affect group size and shape for every tuner out there. The only way I know of is to hear these details from individual makers. Ya'll have a good one. Gotta get back to work for now.
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