6 ARC V 6 Grendel

[Herzo]

Ledd Slinger hit it pretty well. The 6 Grendel/AR/Predator/LBC (all effectively the same cartridge) was around as a wildcat for about 10 years before Hornady came to the party. During that period of time, it was never adopted as a commercial cartridge for whatever reason. By pushing the shoulder back by 0.030", Hornady developed a "new" cartridge for which they would provide commercial ammunition. Unfortunately that leaves those of us who spent time and money developing the Grendel out in the cold (or at least where we were).

I plan to try my AR Tactical (112 grain Barnes Match Burner) at 1000 yards at Perry at the end of the month.

 

[SD guy]

SD, are you saying Hornaday created a whole new cartridge just so bolt action shooters could shoot at higher pressures? It never occurred to me to ask for Hornaday's permission when working up a load. And who would not feel safer using Lapua brass over Hornaday's? I guess I am just way behind the times, I thought any and all 6 or 6.5 issues were solved by the Creedmoor. Brass that was tough and bullets that don't blow up on the way to the target would have won me over, not marketing glitz.

Not at all & my mistake here as I somehow over looked 6 Grendel & was thinking 6.5 Grendel. With that in mind, most reloader's tend to prefer working off of & within listed / pressure tested load data. In no way do I wish to suggest you or anyoneelee here should be limited to 52K in a bolt gun.

For many of us that do not feel comfortable working up our own loads & set our own limits in a wildcat world, Hornady load data can be a good reference point.

 

[Oso]

I believe that the 6.5 Grendel didn't reach commercial success in the early years because of Alexander Arm's death grip on the cartridge through its aggressive enforcement of the Trademark "6.5 Grendel". In those early years you couldn't buy a component unless it was built directly by Alexander Arms or licensed by them... no rifles, barrels, reamers, or ammunition from 3rd party entrepreneurs. Cartridges were headstamped with Alexander Arms. I remember a few 3rd party manufactures attempted to circumvent the Trademark by labeling and stamping their brass as 6.5 x 39mm. No components and no ammo means that normal consumers loose interest quickly. You can only live in a desert for so long...

This monopoly business strategy by Alexander Arms was short-sighted and it last for several years. The Silver Lining was that the nice folks over at Remington were Grateful. This self-imposed absence of the Grendel allowed the 300BO to fill the niche and thrive, gaining market share and wide acceptance for hunting.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not at all & my mistake here as I somehow over looked 6 Grendel & was thinking 6.5 Grendel. With that in mind, most reloader's tend to prefer working off of & within listed / pressure tested load data. In no way do I wish to suggest you or anyoneelee here should be limited to 52K in a bolt gun.

For many of us that do not feel comfortable working up our own loads & set our own limits in a wildcat world, Hornady load data can be a good reference point.

Still is. I know of no reason why you can't load a 6 Grendel to 6 Arc data, bolt or gas. A smidgen more margin. The two are virtually the same. I'd bet money that the only reason hornady changed dimensions at all from a 6 Grendel is Robert Whitley claimed it as proprietary, his 6AR variant. Coincidentally, it appears that his site is shut down and Hornady didn't even bother with changing body dimensions of a 22 Arc. It's exactly a 22 Grendel.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I believe that the 6.5 Grendel didn't reach commercial success in the early years because of Alexander Arm's death grip on the cartridge through its aggressive enforcement of the Trademark "6.5 Grendel". In those early years you couldn't buy a component unless it was built directly by Alexander Arms or licensed by them... no rifles, barrels, reamers, or ammunition. Brass cases were stamped with Alexander Arms.... I remember 3rd party manufactures attempted to circumvent the Trademark by labeling and stamping their brass as 6.5 x 39mm. No components and no ammo means that consumers loose interest quickly. You can only live in a desert for so long...

This money grab by Alexander Arms was a terrible business decision that last for years. However, the silver lining is that the nice folks over at Remington are Grateful. The self-imposed absence of the Grendel allowed the 300BO to fill the niche and thrive, gaining market share and wide acceptance for hunting.

I can't agree, as the only thing Alexander protected was the name. He told me from his own mouth by phone that I could do anything I wished to do with the cartridge except call it "Grendel." We could copy it exactly as well as make anything exactly, with only renaming...fwiw. He did later drop that protection as well.
It's part of the reason my 30 Grendel is called a 30 Major

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I can't agree, as the only thing Alexander protected was the name. He told me from his own mouth by phone that I could do anything I wished to do with the cartridge except call it "Grendel." We could copy it exactly as well as make anything exactly, with only renaming...fwiw. He did later drop that protection as well.
It's part of the reason my 30 Grendel is called a 30 Major

Yeah Robert Whitley did the same thing with the 6mm AR and 6mm AR Turbo 40. So Les Baer just tweaked the reamer dimensions ever so slightly, just .002” in a couple spots he saw fit, and we had the 243 LBC (Les Baer Custom) and the 243 LBC Turbo 40 fully available to the public.

The FL sizing die for my 243 LBC Turbo 40 is actually a 6mm AR Turbo 40 die that I bought from Mr Whitley. Could have had a FL die custom made by Whidden, but the 6mm AR Turbo 40 is the same exact thing and FL dies were readily available. The seater I had made from a Wilson micrometer blank with my own reamer.

 

[Bodhisafa]

How does the 6 and 22 Grinch dimensions compare to all these various Grendel / AR Turbos variations ?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

How does the 6 and 22 Grinch dimensions compare to all these various Grendel / AR Turbos variations ?

Very similar. The Grinch is just a Genrdel case with a 40 degree shoulder. So more capacity than a standard Grendel, but not quite as much as the Turbo 40.

Think of the Grendel case variants compared this way to 6mm BR case variants:

Grendel case: 6mm BR case:

6mm Grendel = 6mm BR

6mm Grinch = 6mm BRA

6mm AR Turbo 40 = 6mm Dasher

 

[Bodhisafa]

Very similar. The Grinch is just a Genrdel case with a 40 degree shoulder. So more capacity than a standard Grendel, but not quite as much as the Turbo 40.

Think of the Grendel case variants compared this way to 6mm BR case variants:

Grendel case: 6mm BR case:

6mm Grendel = 6mm BR

6mm Grinch = 6mm BRA

6mm Turbo 40 = 6mm Dasher

Can one have a 6mm Turbo 40 cut down much like a 6 dasher die can be cut to make a 6 BRA?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Can one have a 6mm Turbo 40 cut down much like a 6 dasher die can be cut to make a 6 BRA?

Perhaps, but I’m not one to recommend cutting FL dies down that far. The base diameter on the die probably wont be right due to the body taper in the die. A person could try it, but personally I would have a custom die made.

Something half way between the 6mm Grinch and 6mm AR Turbo 40 would be cool. Better capacity than the Grinch, but a longer neck than the Turbo 40. Essentially would be a Grendel version of the 6mm “BRX”. Pretty sure wildcatters have already used a similar case design with a 20 caliber varmint round based on the Grendel case, but not sure on 6mm.

There is a 6mm Fat Rat that is based on an improved version of the Grendel case as well. I believe it’s the same as the 6mm AR Turbo 40, but not exactly sure on case dimensions.

 

[ebb]

Reminton for a while made a 30 caliber AR cartridge that i really liked but it died in the end of Remington. 30AR I think.

 

[rockhound78]

Like to find a long heavy barrel for the 30RAR. I have dies and brass, but no barrel!! Always wondered how it would perform if necked to either 6mm or 22 cal.

 

[Varminterror]

I started shooting 6 Grendel (243 LBC) a few years before the 6 ARC came about - which was already after about 3 years of hand wringing about whether I wanted to settle for a little performance loss from a straight 6 Grendel/243 LBC or pay Robert for sole-source wildcats… comparatively, I can get longer bullets into AR mag length with the ARC case, but I can get about a grain and a half more powder into the 243 LBC case. Also conveniently, the Grendel case remains large enough to make good use of 8208, which is cleaner and more temp stable than Leverevolution in the ARC case. We just don’t have a great canister powder for the ARC right now, and I don’t think we’re really ever going to get one. LR works well in the ARC, and I expect some folks will be figure out H4895 loads that keep them happy, but typically we’re giving up some speed that many folks don’t want to give up.

It does feel hard to justify an ARC in a bolt gun, when the BR/BRA/Dashers already do what it can do, and a lot more, or with lower pressure for the same performance, but some guys are getting ARC’s to run well in a .473” bolt face and they seem to run fine in BR blocked mags, so if it’s just a barrel and brass, and a guy has already done what they want with BR based rounds, then why not an ARC? In a small frame gasser, it’s really, really tough to find fault in the ARC.

 

[284winner]

25 grendel would be interesting

 

[Varminterror]

25 grendel would be interesting

I think a lot about that one too - but the 130’s which make the 25’s really interesting are too long for gasser mags. Really fun in a bolt gun, I’d imagine.

 

[284winner]

I think a lot about that one too - but the 130’s which make the 25’s really interesting are too long for gasser mags. Really fun in a bolt gun, I’d imagine.

May have to play with one. No way I'll wear my 6.5 barrel out before I'm too old to want to do a 25 Grendel. May look into a similar barrel spec as my Howa mini HB only maybe in the 24" range. Possibly a CFW. Let's face it tho, I'm picking fly shit out of pepper between these two cartridges in terms of performance.

 

[David Milisock]

They are basically the same thing. The 6mm ARC is one of Hornady’s marketing schemes where they take existing designs from wildcatters, slightly tweak it, give it a new name, act like they are testing it for the first time, then sell it to the general population who doesn’t know any better."

Unfortunately, Ledd Slinger you sound like a crap slinger, I, unlike many bought the 6mm ARC because I did know better, as well as knowing exactly what it was and was not. Hornady didn't cheat me and most likely no one else.

I used it for what it was made for, a CQB, light to medium game rifle in an AR15 platform. I did it like that because I knew better, I knew it was better to have a factory supported platform from an established company than a wildcat platform for a working rifle.

Ammo is available if I travel, brass is available when I reload from a reliable source, albeit not the most precision source but the result is a reliable platform that is medium game capable and far more accurate enough to take game as far as it's ethical.

 

[David Milisock]

These little cases are great but they're being marketed to the cool kids right now, err, long range. Yes, they'll go bang with a 108 class 6mm bullet and yes, better than 556/223 performance, but they just lack raw capacity to shine their brightest with the heavy for caliber projectiles. They shine brightest with light bullets but if you're stuck on long range and nothing else turns your crank, run the numbers yourself of 87-95 grain bullets vs 105-108 grainers. I can push 95's at 3100 from a straight 6 Grendel in a good BOLT gun. Run the numbers and see what the drift difference is based on that vs the heavies and generally, shorter bullets have better all out accuracy potential than longer ones. The tradeoff is bc but you can't push the heavies fast enough to benefit from them in these cases. Step up to a bit bigger case and horsepower starts to favor the heavies, by a little bit.

I'll never pick on someone for building what they want but you're dead on. The 6MM ARC has its place and, in my opinion, many don't seem to understand that place.

I have a 6MM varmint rig and have had it nearly 40 years, it is not in 6MM ARC, if I wanted a 6MM long range rifle it would not be in 6MM ARC.

I didn't have a self-loading general purpose/CQB/medium range/medium game rifle, so I had one built and it is an AR 15 in 6MM ARC. I'm happy, the Bears won the Caulder Cup so I'm extra happy.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Unfortunately, Ledd Slinger you sound like a crap slinger, I, unlike many bought the 6mm ARC because I did know better, as well as knowing exactly what it was and was not. Hornady didn't cheat me and most likely no one else.

I used it for what it was made for, a CQB, light to medium game rifle in an AR15 platform. I did it like that because I knew better, I knew it was better to have a factory supported platform from an established company than a wildcat platform for a working rifle.

Ammo is available if I travel, brass is available when I reload from a reliable source, albeit not the most precision source but the result is a reliable platform that is medium game capable and far more accurate enough to take game as far as it's ethical.

I think you’re missing the point. I agree that commercialization is a good thing for a cartridge. Makes everything more available and we all benefit. All I’m saying is that Hornady will never just call it what it is, a 6mm Grendel, or give credit where credit is due.

Always hearing ignorant folks talk about the “NEW” 6mm ARC…but anyone who has been in the game a while knows full well that it’s nothing new. It’s like a little sh*thead at work going up to the boss and taking credit for YOUR work to get a pat on the back. Hornady is the biggest crap slinger there is! That’s all I’m saying.

 

[David Milisock]

I think you’re missing the point. I agree that commercialization is a good thing for a cartridge. Makes everything more available and we all benefit. All I’m saying is that Hornady will never just call it what it is, a 6mm Grendel, or give credit where credit is due.

Always hearing ignorant folks talk about the “NEW” 6mm ARC…but anyone who has been in the game a while knows full well that it’s nothing new. It’s like a little sh*thead at work going up to the boss and taking credit for YOUR work to get a pat on the back. Hornady is the biggest crap slinger there is! That’s all I’m saying.

Did Hornady block anyone from developing any of the 6MM wildcats into commercial cartridges? No!

I researched the 6ARC quite awhile before I built one. Hornady was open about the development process, but they didn't need to be. In business you promote yourself, not the competition.

If wildcat developers wanted to commercialize their development they should have done so, if those who support the wildcatters efforts didn't step up and help them commercialize it, that's on them.

People need to tell the story as it was. Whoever it was developed this but didn't commercialize it. Hornady modified that concept and commercialized it.

Hornady put an oversized belt on the 458 x 2, called it the 450 Marlin Magnum. Does the person who came up with the 458 x 2 deserve credit for the 450 Marlin?

No, because like the 6MM ARC no credit is due. That person gets credit for the 458 x 2 which became nothing.