6.5x55 vs 6.5x284

[DukeDuke]

warthog97,

Perhaps it's the Christmas cheer, but I didn't pick up on DukeDuke's comment to you as a flame!

Not at all!

 

[warthog97]

My Scandinavian ancestors will haunt me for ever for that Swede, Swiss screw up! DOOAAAHH! Thanks for the correction!
OK, so back to the original question, anyone have any loads for the 6.5x55 SWEDE that safely pushed rounds out in the neighborhood of the 6.5x284? I promiss to start low and work up slowly! I have a rifle that will thank you forever! -bnw

 

[acloco]

warthog - hurry up and do the groundwork....it will probably be a few months before my barrel arrives!

I do shoot a couple original M96 Swedes. IMR3031 works rather well with 129 & 140/142 grain bullets.

 

[rhino]

VIN N560 47.6 grains
Lapua brass ff
.002 neck tension
.294 chambered rifle and custom reamer.
140 bergers seated .015 into rifling tungston coated.
Light it with a Wolf LRP.

2950 fps from a 30 inch Bartlien 5R.

RHINOUT!

 

[Rust]

Well, 96 Swedes are very polular in my neck of the woods, one shop which sort of specializes in Mausers military rifles must have sold a couple of hundred 96s before the supply of good ones dried up. He also got a large shipment of Swedish military match ammunition before that dried up. The combination of the match ammo with a "0" bore rifle proved so accurate that folks were very hard pressed to even match it hand loading. Plus 96 Swedes are stout, really stout. But they have a lock time somewhere in the next zip code, nothing that can't be compensated for by a good nut behind the rifle.

Now a 6.5 X 55 will push a 139-142 to the 2950-3000 fps range with a little extra barrel, my 6.5 X 284 will do it with a 26 inch barrel and almost hit the next up accuracy node at 3150,or there abouts). But that is in the pretty darn hot range.

6.5-06 will do pretty much anything the 6.5 X 284 will do and I've seen some pretty accurate ones. Barrel life is about what you'd expect though, same ball park as the 6.5 X 284.

Anyhow, I've had my best loads with H4350 and RL-22 in the 6.5 X 284. H4350 gives better numbers though in my rifle. An yes, I use a long action to keep the bullet out of the engine room. A single shot large diameter Nesika isn't going to be any less stiff than a short action and has PLENTY of room.

But if I wasn't using a 6.5 X 284 I'd probably go with the Swede.

I don't know why folks consider the 6.5 X 284 finicky though, I haven't had the least trouble with it, load developement was easy, and the when rebarreling the powder charge only takes a slight adjustment, less than has been encountered changing lots of powder.

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

Rust,
Like you, I'm shooting a 6.5-284 in a long action. Mine's a Stiller TAC300 with a 30" Bartlein 5R barrel. I've tried 142 SMK's and H4831sc, but of all the combinations this particular rifle prefers H4350 and 139 Scenars seated .015" into the lands. In a quest for the best accuracy combined with reasonable barrel life I don't load it very hot averaging 2980MV, but the pressure seems quite low with easy bolt lift, absolutely no primer flattening or cratering, and not a hint of case stretching.

There's nothing wrong with the Swede, in fact I own one, but it's a Husqvarna built m/38 that I shoot in old military rifle club matches so I don't load it very hot. One of the shooters at our club ranges shoots a Swede with a 26" Krieger barrel built on a long M700 action. He can equal the 2980MV that I'm getting from my 6.5-284 but with definite signs of high pressure. I know that his case life is suffering, and I only wonder if his barrel life is going to be appreciably better than mine?

 

[rhino]

30 inch tube and his pressure would be down. I perfer the Swede...I shot the 6.5x.284 for a year and hated it. Finicky, weird vertical. You think you got it down and something else shows up to throw ya off.

If you burn H4350 which is rather fast for the case volume, your pressure and heat is higher and hence your bore life can be less.

The Swede can reach 2950 easily. Just need a longer tube and a good load properly worked up.

You can use H4350 in your swede too, just watch the pressure. I haven't tried H4350 in my tight .294 rifle and Bartlien barrel as of yet. I get about the same FPS with 1.0 less powder than Quickload predicts. So maybe H4350 will work.

Before my pressure was too high, Yep the case does stretch, in the future I might go with a 6.5x55se with a 35 degree shoulder. However more testing by Proteus-x and myself will yeild more info.

RHINOUT!

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

Rhino,
I'm on my second 6.5-284 and haven't run into any loading problems. It hasn't been finicky at all through my previous Krieger barrel or the Bartlein that I'm presently using.

-

For those who were wondering who actually developed the 6.5x55 cartridge:

This cartridge was developed by a joint commission that was established by the Norwegian-Swedish Confederation. No one country or individual can be solely credited with the design or development of this cartridge. Either country could select their own rifle and cartridge and worked seperately for a while, but it made more sense to work together as much as possible. They were able to agree upon the 6.5x55 cartridge which they refered to as the new "Union Cartridge", but economics forced them to build their own rifles, with Norway adopting its own Krag-Jorgenson design while Sweden opted to build the first m/94 and m/96 rifles at home under licence from Mauser.

There's been some confusion about the origins of what we commonly refer to as the "Swede", and I hope that this sheds some light on it

 

[Bones507]

I have been playing with 6.5x55,s for about 7-8 years now, it was my first rifle, the 96. I then got a 38 and sporterized the hell out of it, shoots good but i only go out to 3-400 yards with it and shoot only 100 grain bullets.
My economic situation doesnt allow me to build one as i would like to, so im thinking of an Encore in 6.5x55. I figure a single shot will be more accurate and its affordable. I doubt it a tack driver but will probably be better than what i have.
Does anyone here have any experience with the Encore in the above caliber ?

 

[rhino]

Well spot check your lucky. The 6.5x.284 will run nice with H4350 and 142 smk. However your bore life is short.

I therefore tried to use slower powders and it didn't like it. I know a shooter at Bodines that has been playing with his 6.5x.284 for years and doesn't like it either. He was shooting H4350 too, He is thinking of switching to the swede as well.

The 6.5x.284 is a great round, just 2950 and H4350 is overbore and your at what 87% case fill volume? It amazes me that it shoots so well with a powder that doesn't fill the case to 95% or better.

RHINOUT!

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

rhino,
I don't worry too much about loading density if I'm getting excellent accuracy and the ES & SD figures are respectable. I'm quite sure that a higher loading density will theoretically result in a "better" overall load, but the accuracy that I'm seeing isn't theoretical.

Theoretically the H4831sc loads that I've tried should shoot better than my H4350 loads if you go by figures alone 'cause they're giving me ES readings averaging 3fps and SD's averaging 2fps and my H4350 loads yield an avg. ES of 17fps with an avg. SD of 8fps. The higher loading density of the H4831sc loads could very well explain that. But in fact my H4350 loads outshoot my H4831sc loads from 100yds. to 1000yds. Giving me smaller groups with less vertical stringing.

I'm convinced that my present rifle just prefers 139 Scenars and H4350 so that's what I'm going to shoot. Barrel life is a distant second in importance. Evidently some top shooters like John Brewer and John Hoover have found that H4350 has been the powder of choice for their 6.5-284's and you can't argue with their success.

As to barrel life, we'll just have to see about that. I didn't opt for a 6.5-284 expecting great barrel life in any case. And I'm not so convinced that a hot-rodded Swede is going to get that many more rounds down the tube anyway, especially when many Swede shooters are using double based powders like N560. You wind up having to push the Swede to equal the velocities that you can get out of a 6.5-284 at just over an idle. And if you AI the Swede you're burning about the same amount of powder that a 6.5-284 does, so what's the big advantage?

This is in no way intended to put down your choice of cartridge. The Swede's a gret round, but in the real world you don't get somethin' for nothin'. If the Swede was so advantageous I believe that the top competitors would have gone to it instead of the 6.5-284!

In any case, we can just agree to disagree

 

[mysticplayer]

Although not part of the orig comparison, consider the 6.5 Mystic/260AI. This case can push a 139gr Scenar to 2900fps in a 30" pipe with ease. 3000fps is obtainable in my rifles but pressures are too high.

I burn 46.5gr of H4831SC with 100% load density. I get zero vertical at 300m and LR accuracy has proven superb. Est barrel life is 2500+rds. I have gone past 1700rds and able to hold the 2's at 200yds. Did shoot a few groups that were in the 1's too so there is lots of life left in this pipe.

I like this case the best because you also get very little stretching thanks to the 40deg shoulder. Not so good for mag feeding but fine for single fed F class rifles like how I use it.

I form from 308 Winchester brass which is cheap and readily available. A bit of case forming and work. Very simple to do and brass life has been superb.

Pretty much the smallest case volume needed to get these bullets to 2900fps and higher.

Jerry

 

[rhino]

Aaah yet another 6.5 option, .260 AI. Any of them are good. BTW with a 30 inch tube you can get 3000 fps with H4831 sc with ease so you won't be using a double base powder. Helps if you have a tighter custom chamber as well.

You are correct a 6.5x55 AI would be almost the same as a straight 6.5x.284. Which is why I went with the 6.5x.284 for a year.

However I wouldn't run a 40 degree shoulder, maybe a 35-37 degree. 40 degree shoulders have some disadvantages not including feeding from a mag when your running 140 class vlds fast.

You can get 6.5x55 sweed brass cheeper...which makes a 35 degree shoulder version viable. I got a veteran reloader and former high power shooter working with me and my cases now. I don't have the 20 plus years experience he does. So we'll see what our two heads come up with. If the swedes stretch and other issues become big...we'll consider a 35 degree shoulder.

In any event a 6.5 at .260 AI or greater case capacity is a good choice for 1000 yd work.

RHINOUT!

 

[3sixbits]

I'm in total agreement with the 6.5x55 AI as long as the shoulder is 35 degrees. Properly designed reamer and I do not think the ctg could be beat. Just go read what P.O. ACKLEY wrote nearly 50 years ago about the 6.5x55 being just about optimum capacity for the 6.5 bore,Vol I).

After 40+ years of fooling around with the 6.5 bore, I know for sure he was right. The 6.5x55 AI with the 35 degree shoulder is tops in my book.

 

[ConnorExum]

Isn't the issue really how much more powder can you burn and see sufficient increase in performance to warrant the burning of that powder? I mean who cares is you burn 100grains of powder in the 6.5 diameter bore only to see a 200-300fps increase in performance over the cartridges with 40-60 grains performance. Obviously these numbers are not actual figures,they just to illustrate the point I'm attempting to make that efficiency has it place in the cartridge design as well.

Clearly the 6.5x55 is an effective cartridge. So are the other cartridges mentioned here as well. The question seems to be is 6.5x55 the optimal balance between pressure and gas-temp that gives the shooter best external ballistics while optimizing the internal ballistics as well. It would appear that the biggest killer of the rifle's barrel is temp and pressure. As pressure increases the temperature of the gas has to increase,as shown by ideal gas laws) so I cannot see any advantage in barrel life based solely on the capacity cartridge. If a specific capacity of a cartridge with a given bullet weight gives the same pressure as say a larger capacity cartridge with less powder in it the wear on the barrel should be nearly identical in theory. So I cannot see any difference between the 6.5x55 running at 55,000psi with 42.5 grains or so of powder and 6.5-284 with a similar pressure showing any signs of a better barrel life.

Nor does it stand to reason that a smaller more efficient case driving a bullet at higher pressure like the 6.5x47mm Lapua should yield better barrel life than a 6.5x55 or 6.5-284 with more powder usage. I think that this argument doesn't stand to reason that powder usage is the sole determinate of barrel wear since most data I've seen on the subject suggests that pressure and temperature are the real barrel killers.

Also from an external point of view of the ballistics there doesn't seem to be a good argument that a bullet from a smaller case should be less effective at similar ranges to that of a bullet from a larger case. If both cases are delivering the same muzzle velocity and using bullets with similar BC's the bullet's performance should also be in theory the same as well. That is to say that on paper a bullet traveling at 2900fps with a BC of .615, Lapua's claim for the 139 Scenar 6.5) should drop and drift the same amount no matter the parent cartridge's dimensions.

So to me the advantage between the 6.5-284win and the 6.5x55 or 6.5x47mm is the ability to stuff more powder in the case. Now this might reduce efficiency in the cartridge but you might take that loss in efficiency to gain the ability to push the 139-147 grain class VLD's to 2950-3200+fps. If that gain is important to you I would pick those cartridges.

However, if you want to increase the efficiency of the cartridge perhaps save weight in the area of the size of action, gain more usable barrel length for a given size than converting over to a shorter-wider cartridge might be the option you want.

To me the question is what ranges do you want too shoot and with what type of bullet. Then you pick the cartridge that gives you the best chance of reaching these goals.

My self I'm really keen on the new 6.5x47mm it appears to easily get to the 2800+ range with 28 inch barrel and safe on brass. I intend to use a slightly modified cartridge to increase powder capacity to about 43grains and 31.5 inch barrel. I should see velocities in the 2950 range as doable with 140grain VLD. I don't think barrel life will be great at 65,000psi but I do think advantages of using small primer pockets, increased usable barrel length for a specific length, and short actions will pay off in the long run for me.

 

[ConnorExum]

Total Impulse is the key to this issue. I mean you take a lower force say from a slower-burning low pressure powder and push it out of a longer barrel and you can duplicate the same performance of the faster-burning higher pressure powders because of the time that the force acts on the projectile. In this case the funny thing is that you still want a cartridge with higher width to length ratio to minimize OAL of the Cartridge thus giving you more usable barrel length for similar capacity cartridges.

 

[3sixbits]

Theories aside, in the real world, when you have a ctg that is overbore capacity such as the .264 WINCHESTER mag and you have to use 10 or more grains of powder to get the same velocity that you do with a smaller case with the same bullet. Then you get the understanding that it just ain't temperature and pressure that is the factors to cause you wear problems.

The burn that goes on in the ctg case in the chamber is a fluid mass that is being controlled by the shape of the mass, in relation to the id of the ctg inside dimensions and shape.

The sand blast effect is another factor thought to be a cause of throat wear. I know when you look at the throat in a rifle and see the cracking and it looks like the back of an alligator, with your bore scope. Your seeing the effects of the hot gases at work.

 

[ConnorExum]

Theories aside, in the real world, when you have a ctg that is overbore capacity such as the .264 WINCHESTER mag and you have to use 10 or more grains of powder to get the same velocity that you do with a smaller case with the same bullet. Then you get the understanding that it just ain't temperature and pressure that is the factors to cause you wear problems.

The burn that goes on in the ctg case in the chamber is a fluid mass that is being controlled by the shape of the mass, in relation to the id of the ctg inside dimensions and shape.

The sand blast effect is another factor thought to be a cause of throat wear. I know when you look at the throat in a rifle and see the cracking and it looks like the back of an alligator, with your bore scope. Your seeing the effects of the hot gases at work.

I'm not trying to get into a fight hear over it. I'm just saying that people tend to over emphasize the capacity issue in that burning powder is the case of barrel wear in fact is more apt to say that hot gases and pressure are the issues.


All cartridges are going to eject unburnt powder into the bore, that is fact of using a rearward ignition system. How much powder is going to be affected by the total case capacity but to say that this is going to be more damaging than pressures or temperatures... I've not really read any anything to suggest that this so. You could be right, I've not read anything but I have read a few studies from the US Army that claim that pressure and temperature are the issues of greatest barrel wear, hence the reason Ball Powder is nastier on bores than stick powders...


Yes, the 35-40 degrees shoulders are designed to contain more powder in the cartridge but what about the Monroe Effect where the gas within the cartridge itself creates a jet of molten melt that pits and scales the bore? This to me is probably where the powder gets burnt up. I venture to say that fair amount of barrel wear is caused by the Monroe effect as I've described. and as long as metal cartridges are used it likely it will happen.


The 264win Mag I think is showing the signs of efficiency loss. The fact that more powder will not cause an increase in velocity is due to the fact that bore capacity and cartridge volume are not optimized so all that extra powder increased both the pressure and temperature in the bore, but does little to increase velocity since it lost energy not used to increase velocity but just increase pressure that is not effective in moving the bullet. Just because you increase the pressure doesn't always mean an increase in velocity. Sometimes that extra pressure is just lost to wearing out the barrel. Otherwise that stupid 6.5x50BMG wildcat would be the greatest cartridge ever!

 

[3sixbits]

The information that needs to be read about this, was covered some years ago in PS magazine by articles written by a rocket scientist. Among the factors covered was the reflective nature of the inside of the ctg and how it factored in the burn.

One thing to keep in mind about powder in the bore is just this, it is not "unburned powder", it in fact is burning powder that is traveling down the bore in a fluid mass.

The series of articles by the rocket guy and another fellow brought to some vary interesting conclusions about the shape a ctg should be. They were never able to produce such cases for a number of mechanical reasons. The entire effort was because of bore erosion problems. You might change some of your understanding if you were to read this material. Often we find good information outside the normal sources when we read what the thoughts and conclusion from people with different disciplines.

The rocket scientist started from the point that the erosion in rifle bores reminded him of similar problems he had had with rocket motors and exhaust nozzles. His methods of correction for his problems in his field.

I have no interest in any arguments with you,or anyone). My wish is, to only provide my understanding on the subject.

 

[Rust]

Yeah, the barrel life of a 6.5 X 284 is admittedly a little shorter. However using the same reamer and identically spec'd barrels,surprisingly uniform fromone to the next) only 25 rounds were required to set the powder charge for the new barrels which pretty much completed break in too. The adjustment in powder charge was less than going to a new lot of powder.

No, the load density is less than 100%. Still gave rock bottom ES/SD numbers to the point where neck tension became the controlling factor. H4350 delivered for me, the rest did not. Rather than worry about case fill and the powder is a little hotter, I just went with what worked best.

Word of advice to those starting out with a project regardless of chambering. Conventional wisdom is a decent starting place but if something sounds stupid but works, it ain't stupid.

Let's put it like this, in my specific case the reamer was spec'd by me for a few reasons, my barrel selection was spec'd by me for a couple of reasons,both diameter and twist), likewise the dies. The thing is a system and it is how everything works together that produces results.