6.5x47L Substitute powders RL19, Norma 204
- Thread starter fm1947
- Start date
jsthntn247 said:
Well I took my 6.5 x 47 out today with the PowerPro 2000 and the 130VLD's. I did not run it over the chronograph BUT it shot to the same point of impact as my 123's did @ 2985f.p.s. I am flying by the seat of my pants as there is VIRTUALLY no reloading data for that powder in the 6.5 x 47. But ALL of the 5 shot groups were good. The best came at 38.4 with 1.125" @ 300 yards. The others were no worse than 1.50".. So I am going to work with that at the next time out I will have the chrono working.. But so far this powder in this cartridge looks to be VERY promising!! We shall see..
Viht N150 works very well in the cartridge, at least with the 123gn Scenar, although not giving as much velocity as N550 which also usually works well. (On the other hand, N150 probably gives more barrel life.) I'm about to try N150 with the Berger 130 VLD and the new 136gn Scenar, but I suspect it'll be difficult to improve much on the 123's results. (It's a VERY efficient bullet too ballistically with a form factor value of 0.950 (almost as low as the 130 Berger's 0.944) according to Bryan Litz's tests. Being lighter, its BC is down a bit of course, but 0.265 G7 is still amazing for such a little bullet, and it has a much larger dia. meplat than the Berger, so will benefit noticeably from a bit of pointing.
The comments on IMR-4007ssc are interesting. I'll give it a try as I have some on hand that was bought for .308 with heavies but didn't produce the velocities I wanted.
The UK is a VarGet and H4350/H4831 etc free country and has been since last summer, so there has been a lot of looking for alternative powders here too and not just for this cartridge. There is no chance of H4895 / IMR-8208 XBR for 308 win with 155s for instance and hasn't been for many months. Our IMR / Hodgdon importer only gets one main shipment per year from the US plus a second smaller one usually, but 2013 saw stocks sold out as soon as received, presumably as some orders were only partly fulfilled by Hodgdon Powder.
I can still get Czech manufactured Lovex SO65 and SO70 here, the latter being what used to be called Accurate 4350, so will try them in 6.5X47L. SO65 is a stick powder shown as having an identical burning rate to VarGet, but in my experience is a bit bulkier and bit slower burning, so can't be substituted in cartridges like 308 without seeing too big a drop in velocities. I doubt if it'll be great in the 6.5 as I don't think the case has enough room to suit it, but might suit .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor with lighter bullets. I notice a lot of posts talking about this powder's burning rate matching another's and it therefore being assumed that that it's an automatic replacement. I'd say DON'T to these people. Burning rates are only a guide and there's no guarantee at all that two powders with similar burning rates will be equally well matched to a particular cartridge + bullet combination. All it tells you is that it's a possibility, but I learned years ago the hard way (wasting powder, bullets, and barrels) that this is all too often a delusion. There are definitely other elements in the mix that also determine whether a grade works really well or not.
In the US, Western Powders now sources its 'Accurate' brand powders from somebody new, but if you guys can still get the 4350 version, it's an alternative possibility. The 'old' (SO70) version that we have works very well in cartridges that like the 4350s, but many handloaders of my acquaintance used to shun it (in the happy days when powder supplies were plentiful and you actually had a choice of makes) as it's rather long-grained and didn't flow through mechanical powders measure well.
The comments on IMR-4007ssc are interesting. I'll give it a try as I have some on hand that was bought for .308 with heavies but didn't produce the velocities I wanted.
The UK is a VarGet and H4350/H4831 etc free country and has been since last summer, so there has been a lot of looking for alternative powders here too and not just for this cartridge. There is no chance of H4895 / IMR-8208 XBR for 308 win with 155s for instance and hasn't been for many months. Our IMR / Hodgdon importer only gets one main shipment per year from the US plus a second smaller one usually, but 2013 saw stocks sold out as soon as received, presumably as some orders were only partly fulfilled by Hodgdon Powder.
I can still get Czech manufactured Lovex SO65 and SO70 here, the latter being what used to be called Accurate 4350, so will try them in 6.5X47L. SO65 is a stick powder shown as having an identical burning rate to VarGet, but in my experience is a bit bulkier and bit slower burning, so can't be substituted in cartridges like 308 without seeing too big a drop in velocities. I doubt if it'll be great in the 6.5 as I don't think the case has enough room to suit it, but might suit .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor with lighter bullets. I notice a lot of posts talking about this powder's burning rate matching another's and it therefore being assumed that that it's an automatic replacement. I'd say DON'T to these people. Burning rates are only a guide and there's no guarantee at all that two powders with similar burning rates will be equally well matched to a particular cartridge + bullet combination. All it tells you is that it's a possibility, but I learned years ago the hard way (wasting powder, bullets, and barrels) that this is all too often a delusion. There are definitely other elements in the mix that also determine whether a grade works really well or not.
In the US, Western Powders now sources its 'Accurate' brand powders from somebody new, but if you guys can still get the 4350 version, it's an alternative possibility. The 'old' (SO70) version that we have works very well in cartridges that like the 4350s, but many handloaders of my acquaintance used to shun it (in the happy days when powder supplies were plentiful and you actually had a choice of makes) as it's rather long-grained and didn't flow through mechanical powders measure well.
Laurie - I tried Lovex powders in my 6.5X47L - but that was a waste of time and barrel life in my case. I could not duplicate accuracy using N150, ES/SD numbers were also way worster (ES was 80 fps using Lovex and in single digit when using N150). Another thing I do not like by Lovex powders was that they tell that S070 should be the same as N150. My ass!!!! 
I got 2800 fps using 35.5 grs N150/Scenars 123 grs and ONLY 2430 fps when using the same charge of S070...but I got exacly 2800 fps when using 35.5 grs S065.
I do not bother with lovex powders anymore, I use it only for fouling shots/sighters/fireforming loads till I got out of supply...
I got 2800 fps using 35.5 grs N150/Scenars 123 grs and ONLY 2430 fps when using the same charge of S070...but I got exacly 2800 fps when using 35.5 grs S065.I do not bother with lovex powders anymore, I use it only for fouling shots/sighters/fireforming loads till I got out of supply...
There is nothing wrong with Lovex powders, especially the extruded models. Ball varieties give very high MVs but I find them 'dirty' and hate cleaning case-necks up afterwards.
This is back to what I said about burning rate comparisons often being inadequate or even useless as other factors also apply, and burning rate charts are merely a guide anyway. Any powder manufacturer will tell you that positions on charts and lists between different makes / grades can and often do change in relative terms across different cartridges.
You've found what I suspected might apply to SO70 in 6.5X47L if I got around to seeing if it actually works - not enough case capacity to suit this rather bulky powder, hence very low pressures as you can't work the load up to high enough weights. Anyway, I'm grateful for the advice, although I suspect QuickLOAD would have pointed me to the same conclusion before I got as far as actually making up some test loads.
6.5X47L's small case means it's actually rather limited in what fits inside while still providing the right pressure and velocity outputs. Run it through QiockLOAD and you find all the really high performers are high-energy or double-base, and I'm doing my best to avoid going that way in the interest of good barrel life. I really do like N150 in it, and fortunately we can still get it here in the UK, or will when the next shipment arrives soon. A lot of people use the ubiquitous in the UK, Viht N140 in it and are very happy even though I think that one's just a little too fast burning.
This is back to what I said about burning rate comparisons often being inadequate or even useless as other factors also apply, and burning rate charts are merely a guide anyway. Any powder manufacturer will tell you that positions on charts and lists between different makes / grades can and often do change in relative terms across different cartridges.
You've found what I suspected might apply to SO70 in 6.5X47L if I got around to seeing if it actually works - not enough case capacity to suit this rather bulky powder, hence very low pressures as you can't work the load up to high enough weights. Anyway, I'm grateful for the advice, although I suspect QuickLOAD would have pointed me to the same conclusion before I got as far as actually making up some test loads.
6.5X47L's small case means it's actually rather limited in what fits inside while still providing the right pressure and velocity outputs. Run it through QiockLOAD and you find all the really high performers are high-energy or double-base, and I'm doing my best to avoid going that way in the interest of good barrel life. I really do like N150 in it, and fortunately we can still get it here in the UK, or will when the next shipment arrives soon. A lot of people use the ubiquitous in the UK, Viht N140 in it and are very happy even though I think that one's just a little too fast burning.
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