6.5mm Conundrum...

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
I need a bit of a 6.5mm cartridge advice... I have planned a plinker built on the following parts for the last 6 or 8 months...

BAT VR .308 BF, 20 MOA Integral Rail, Integral Recoil Lug, Sliding Plate Extractor, .070" firing pin, finished in Black Melonite
Bartlein SS 5R 1-8" .264" Remington Varmint Contour
Bix'n Andy Remington 700 Varmint Trigger with top safety and bolt release removed
McMillan Sako/Remington Varmint, Heavy Sporter Fill, OD Green Gel Coat, Anschutz Rail, Three Flush Cups, Badger Ordnance Magazine System/Rem Varmint/Bat VR Inlet
Badger Ordnance M5 Enhanced Magazine System(only piece I am waiting on short the can)
Thunder Beast Arms Ultra 9 6.5mm Suppressor OD Green Form 4 Jail
Schmidt Bender 5-20x50 PMII, LP, H59, DT, ZS, on O MOA SPHUR Mount

Rifle to be built by Dave Tooley...

I have intended to build this rifle in 6.5x47 Lapua for some time as I like the case design and frankly don't need a boomer. I have a enough fresh H4350 to shoot through a half dozen new barrels. Lapua 139 Scenars Berger 140 grain VLD Hunting Bullets in decent supply. That said I am hearing a few things that make me wonder about the reamer setup, bullet choice, powder choice, and maybe action choice...

1. A lot of folks are pushing lighter bullets and faster powders. I have faster powder in modest amounts, however, the bullets are another matter. I had hoped to stay between the Berger's 130 AR Hybrid OTM Tactical and the 140grain Berger Hybrid/VLD/AMAX(Found some). Would not hurt my feelings to standardize, at least on this barrel, on the 136 L Scenars, however, again we have to see how it shoots over my Oehler 35P.

2. There was NO CHOICE on firing pin hole size from BAT. It's right at .070" and they say the fit and design goes across the board. I'm least concerned about the larger firing pin as BAT uses the same size for the rest of their actions using small rifle primers with high pressures. From the PPC on up...

3. I have .260 Remington Lapua Brass in profusion. I believe a 1K pieces that I bought from Brownells 6 or 7 years ago. I also have Redding's full Competition Neck Sizing Set with Comp Seater and Body Bump Die. I lost interest in the .260 after I shot it in my one of my AI AWs. With the long bullets we wanted to load, go figure, we were quickly eating up the double column magazine length. Hence the hold on further straight .260 Rem Barrels for my AI AW... Had two deaths in the family within 7 months at the same time which also changed things around a bit as well and put that project on hold..

That said I have thought about talking with Dave, make that deferring to Dave, and having him make any necessary changes to Mr. Whitley's 30 degree Shoulder .260 Remington. The would take care of the large primer issue, H4350/136to142grain bullets, not to mention I have plenty of FGMM210s. I've had to go to CCI450s on the small rifle primer front though I may have 205GMMs as well..

That said the .260 Remington of any flavor fails to address the magazine constraints and 6.5mm bullet length. It really made me wonder when Bryan Litz went with the .260 Remington case to add to the ABM line. Granted he does not pay that much attention to magazine constraints. His .338 LM won't even fit in AI AX CIP magazines...

That could also be an open door to a custom no turn neck 6.5x47 Lapua chamber with the lead setup for the bullet weights I have in mind. Thoughts?

I do not mind buying a custom live pilot reamer in either case, as I would like to buy a sizing die reamer at the same time, however, I don't want to try to reinvent the wheel... The whole reason I really liked the 6.5x47 Lapua was that most of the thinking, and design work, had already been done by Lapua/ Grunig & Elmiger leaving little to "improve" upon. Kind of like buying a Mercedes versus building a kit car... Am I over thinking this or do you see an issue? Brownells will still take all the .260 Remington Lapua Brass back as well as the dies...

Your input would be GREATLY appreciated...

Regards, Matt.

 

[johnfred1965]

OK I'll bite: I have the 6.5 lapua and love it. The case capacity is probably best matched to the 130gr bullets, but it will throw the 140's out there very accurately, so that takes care of your first question. Second, the firing pin is a non issue IMHO, third, with all that brass laying around, Robert Whitley's improved's might be the way to go. He designed them long or short throated, so mag length ammo would be close or on the lands. If you can return the brass, make sure you can get the 6.5 lapua, it has been scarce lately. Lapua did do their homework, the6.5x47 came out of the gate shooting X's, but Whitley has done a lot of the load work for you with the improved's, and in the rifle you want to build, I see a lot of X's in your future too. It's nice to know that whatever you finally decide, you are going to have a great shooting rifle.

 

[mac86951]

H4350, and 6.5mm with magazine constraints and 140gr bullets off of a 308 bolt facr. Why not a 6.5 Creedmoor?

 

[Grimstod]

Creedmoor is not as accurate as a 6.5x47. Besideds, It is more expensive to handload for then the Lapua. Doing some quick math. Lapua $1per case / 25 reloades (most get many more) = $.04 per reload.
Creedmoor $.68per case / 10 reloads(and thats being generous) = $.07 per reload.

 

[Dgd6mm]

What kind of plinking? Raw accuracy is definitely the 6.5x47 Lapua and the brass is a plus.

 

[rardoin]

Creedmoor is not as accurate as a 6.5x47.

Can you supply hard evidence in support of this??

 

[Grimstod]

Can you supply hard evidence in support of this??

Well first i have yet to find a single person with both a Creedmoor and a Lapua that says the creedmoor outshoots their Lapua.

Second i have been watching and counting two forums. One is a Creedmoor forum and the other a 47lapua. When I have four months of data collected ill release it. So far the Lapua page is way ahead in accurate and tight groups.

Lastly the editor of Rifle magazine says the Lapua has an accuracy edge ove the creedmoor. If you look it up on wikipedia its pelled out right there with sources siting it.

So there is three.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
I appreciate the input, however, I have no interest in a 6.5mm Creedmoor... Did not spec BAT, Bartlein, Bix'n Andy, Schmidt & Bender, Dave Tooley, etc to shoot something that may be best serviced in a Ruger Precision Rifle(ducking for cover/kidding guys). I've also had very good service from Lapua Brass for the past 15 or 16 years. Leaves one less variable to worry about... Not interested in Hornady Brass. No slight intended. I just have had zero interest in the Creedmoor from day one and nothing has developed over time...

"Plinking" is anything from informal paper shooting off the bench, steel for certain, on the farm to killing nutria as a suppressed truck gun. My real desire is to wear the barrel out on things that need shooting... Might take a Whitetail and absolutely will nail ground hogs and coyote as opportunities present themselves... Fox and feral cats as well.

Regards, Matt.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

alf,
if I need to make a bullet/powder adjustment I'll just have to do it... Unlike me buy THAT MUCH fresh H4350 without having a concrete use for it, however, having THAT powder amongst others in volume can't be a bad thing. I also have RL-17 and Varget in large case lots... I should note the barrel is going to be a bit on the shorter side to be friendly wearing a can constantly so maybe this is a good time to address this issue. I know the smaller bore was not going to be as friendly to a modest length tube than the larger bore .308 Winchester has been. That said I have to be able to swing the rifle within the cab of the truck. I was thinking no longer than 21.75" long... I know that will kill some guys thoughts of a 1000 yard gun, however, the truth is this has really been 600 yard rifle from the beginning. I have had a Tac-Ops Tango 51 in mind from the beginning... Granted my Tac-Ops .308 Winchester turned out to be the same X-Ray 51 Mike R wanted to build for me, however, the Tango 51 alway struck me as the ideal truck gun...



Sako/Rem Varmint begins to look STRANGE with too much barrel

 

[Laurie]

Berger uses its new 130gn AR-Hybrid in the ABM Service-Ready tactical ammunition which knocks around a tenth of an inch off the nose-length compared to equivalent bullets whilst producing a BC (0.287 G7) that matches anything in its weight and is only a little behind the better 140s which are only just breaking 0.3.

I'm not an AI magazine user myself, but according to the tactical forums, Snipers Hide etc, they work with COALs up to 2.880". If true (??), that 80 thou' is worth a little more space in the usable 260 case and every little helps.

I did a lot of QuickLOAD modelling recently on the 260 using the 139gn Lapua Scenar, shorter than the higher BC Bergers and with a reasonable BC (but no better than the AR-Hybrid despite the extra 9gn weight). Playing with various magazine / single-shot v magazine / throating variables, I got a 120 odd fps difference between best and worst scenarios using Viht N160 (the 139 Scenar and 140 Nosler + this powder are popular here in the UK), but this dropped to a mere 25-30 fps across the various COALs when high-energy powders (Viht N550 / N560; Re17 etc) are substituted. It seems the 260 Rem bullet length / COAL 'mismatch' is not so much of an absolute constraint on potential MVs, rather on powder choice.

Of course, as you have lots of H4350 looking for an application, that may not help too much. On the other hand if that's a major factor in cartridge choice, IME some 6.5X47Ls like this powder and Viht 150 (mine did), but a rather larger number prefer something a bit faster burning, primarily VarGet and Re15 and don't get on at all well with the slightly slower burning grades. Generally 260 seems to like H4350 powder, and the Creedmoor certainly does.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Laurie,
VERY interesting. Thank you.

I have about a 165 pounds of fresh H4350, however, that is a trade worthy commodity over here. Hard to come by at the moment... I suspect I could find a dealer or PRS competitor(s) who would be willing to do a bit of trading. I have plenty of VarGet though not much Re15. I sold off a bit of my RL17 reserves(I got on board early with that powder) when a friend expressed just how temperature sensitive it had proven for him at Williamsport... Will look into V160, V550 and V560 as well.

Had to be a reason Bryan Litz choose the .260 Remington chambering for his 6.5mm vehicle.

Will also give the 30 degree 260 Remington a little more thought as well...

Thank you again...

Regards, Matt.

 

[Drop Port]

Gentlemen,
I appreciate the input, however, I have no interest in a 6.5mm Creedmoor... Did not spec BAT, Bartlein, Bix'n Andy, Schmidt & Bender, Dave Tooley, etc to shoot something that may be best serviced in a Ruger Precision Rifle(ducking for cover/kidding guys). I've also had very good service from Lapua Brass for the past 15 or 16 years. Leaves one less variable to worry about... Not interested in Hornady Brass. No slight intended. I just have had zero interest in the Creedmoor from day one and nothing has developed over time...

"Plinking" is anything from informal paper shooting off the bench, steel for certain, on the farm to killing nutria as a suppressed truck gun. My real desire is to wear the barrel out on things that need shooting... Might take a Whitetail and absolutely will nail ground hogs and coyote as opportunities present themselves... Fox and feral cats as well.

Regards, Matt.

I built one for the same purpose on a VR with a 28" Bart. It is my go to for just about everything. It is scary accurate and consistent.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

I built one for the same purpose on a VR with a 28" Bart. It is my go to for just about everything. It is scary accurate and consistent.

Drop Port,
What turned out to be your "go to" load?

Regards, Matt.

 

[Drop Port]

Drop Port,
What turned out to be your "go to" load?


140 Hybrid
H-4350
450m
I'm running a .198fb

 

[4xforfun]

Laurie,
VERY interesting. Thank you.

I have about a 165 pounds of fresh H4350,

Regards, Matt.

OK...I'm just going to say it......that is THE definition of hording!! LOL

Sorry...just had to!!!

Tod

 

[DT]

OK...I'm just going to say it......that is THE definition of hording!! LOL

Sorry...just had to!!!

Tod

Hoarding, Nah. At 40 grains per charge that's only 28,875 rounds

 

[JarheadAZ]

Hoarding, Nah. At 40 grains per charge that's only 28,875 rounds

I like the .260, been shooting it at most distances since 2001 including several years of 1000yd F Open. When Creedmore came about, I stayed with the .260, because I can simply neck down 7-08 brass to make my .260 cases when .260 brass is too scarce or too dear.

Greg

 

[Terry Altom]

I'm building a 260AI now for F-Open 800-1000 yards and banging steel 100-1200 yards, as that's about all I get to do here in northern VA. I had a hard time not building the 6.5 SLR. I love the neck and overall look of that one.

http://www.6mmar.com/65_SuperLR.php

I'm building from a Savage F/TR to give me the flexibility to swap barrels on my own to see if I like a round or not. Also don't loose my rifle for weeks/months waiting for the barrel to be installed/swapped.

I still like the 6.5 SLR and just might end up with one some day ;-)

 

[wi50]

for what it's worth I shoot both the 6.5x47 and the .260, over the years I've had a few .260's then this new Lapua came along 10 years or so ago I've built a few for friends and myself. I've got a good supply of powders and bullets and things cross over from one to the other and I keep a supply of barrel blanks on hand. When I set up a barrel in the lathe it's a debate as to which reamer to grab, lucky for me after shooting both I can now make my decision easier as to which reamer to use. 6.5X47 will lay in the drawer while the .260 will get used. I like the 6.5X47, but the .260 just offers a little more horsepower, I have a few areas where I shoot well past 1000 yds. Now if I were going with a short barrel of say 20-22" and not trying to push velocity for a rig and shots were kept inside 800 yds I'd probably opt for the 6.5X47.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the input. It is GREATLY appreciated... I'm about 90% certain on the 6.5x47 Lapua and sticking to 123-130 grain bullets. Have a rifle smith that has a reamer that is ideal for that application with a proven track record... That said I am also VERY interested in the .260 Remington 30 degree improved. That said it would put me buying a reamer, sizing reamer, and a base set of dies to send to Jim Carstenson. May be able to skip the sizing reamer...

Only thing that dissuades me on the .260 in ANY form is the 6.5x47 seems to be just about PERFECT out of the box. No fire forming... That said I could pickup another barrel and try the .260 Remington 30 degree at a later date on another barrel, OR, I could send the smith another Bartlein 5R SS 1-8" Remington Varmint Blank to chamber at the same time... Integral recoil lug should be easy enough for a Switch Barrel. I am impressed with Mr. Whitley's work on the two .260 Remington 30 degree Shoulder Reamers. Especially the shorter freebore model intended to work within mag constraints...

How short can I go and not kill the cartridge? 20-22" is the range with my preference on the shorter end as there will be a TBAC Ultra 9 6.5mm Silencer attached 99% of the time.

Regards, Matt.