6.5 Grendell reamer specs WANTED / HELP

[Mark Walker in TX]

Dantec,

Bill Alexander is not a member of this forum so he asked me to post this in my response.

Arne

Hi Arnie i have been waiting about specs from Australia watching this post to see the results i dont know why Bill Alexander dosent just register on the forum so we can hear it from him there is interest in the calibre but we want hard data the testing does show some advantage over the 6.8 but the case is to short for belt feed and that is why it is not a realistic option for a military replacement. i dont think that Bill would have any trouble registering on the forum so lets let him speek so we can hear it from the horses mouth so to say if he is already reading the posts?? I have found Dan Tec to be verry helpfull and willing to share information with others for the betterment of the sport..

Bill
Australia

Bill,

For more info on the Grendel, including a rather spirited discussion on Military usage, visit www.65Grendel.com

 

[TX65]

Dantec,

Bill Alexander is not a member of this forum so he asked me to post this in my response.

Arne

Hi Arnie i have been waiting about specs from Australia watching this post to see the results i dont know why Bill Alexander dosent just register on the forum so we can hear it from him there is interest in the calibre but we want hard data the testing does show some advantage over the 6.8 but the case is to short for belt feed and that is why it is not a realistic option for a military replacement. i dont think that Bill would have any trouble registering on the forum so lets let him speek so we can hear it from the horses mouth so to say if he is already reading the posts?? I have found Dan Tec to be verry helpfull and willing to share information with others for the betterment of the sport..

Bill
Australia

Bill,

For more info on the Grendel, including a rather spirited discussion on Military usage, visit www.65Grendel.com

Wild Bill,

Bill Alexander does not register on every forum, but does read them from time to time especially if directed to a forum by me or someone else if a topic is of interest. In all honestly, I probably check in here once a month unless someone directs me here... just too many things to do and too little time.

If you have direct questions regarding the Grendel for either Bill or I, the best way to reach us is via direct email. bill@alexanderarms.com and akb@competitionshooting.com. Bill deals with the standard commercial AR, I deal with the match AR's and probably have more time and rounds down range with bolt guns then anyone. I shoot all the way to 1,000 yards with my Grendel and my personal rifle was featured as a gun of the week on this web site.

The Grendel can be belt fed and discussions have been underway for quite awhile with the companies involved in those systems. It also works very well in full auto and 3 shot burst mode.

The cartridge is going through the CIP process and the detailed max specifications will be released at that time. These maximum specifications are in excess of the loads used in factory ammo for the AR15 due to bolt thrust limitations of the locking lug system. I have known Bill Alexander for many years and one thing he is is safe and with hundreds upon hundreds of Grendel's out shooting without any failure, I would say the proof is in the hand of shooters. Something people who are thinking about shooting the Grendel in bolt guns need to consider is the differences in the platforms and the restrictions that the AR15 places on factory ammo since the AR15 is the launch platform. In a nutshell, a Nesika or Panda action is not subject to the same bolt thrust limits as the AR15 and what is safe in the AR15 would be mild in a bolt gun. In addition, a bolt gun is not subject to the magazine OAL restriction. As such, I am very cautious about releasing load data from bolt guns so someone does not plug it into their AR15 even as a single loaded round.

Given the shear volume of cases that have been sold or given away at events such as SHOT show,2004 and 2005) and NRA show,2005), the cases are out there for someone to measure. I will even do some basic measurements and post them for the base case.

As far as releasing the reamer specs, there are multiple reamer versions for various platforms and applications. This is no different then a standard .223 Rem chamber and other designs such as the Wylde chamber or the 5.56 NATO chamber. I hate to think how many versions of the 6 PPC are out there and I am sure people have quite a few versions of the 6 BR as well.

When the cartridge is CIP'd, a standard chamber specification will be in the public domain and people will then start tweaking the clearances and throats for their purposes. I have my own clearances as does Speedy Gonzalez.

I realize that to almost all of you, shooting is a hobby and some of you share the chambers you develop and some of you dont. I am sure you can appreciate that this is a business for people like Bill Alexander and myself as well as many other people who come to this forum. As such, I have no plans to release the detailed dimensions of the match chamber I use nor will authorize the reamer maker to sell the reamer to the public. Not being evasive, just being a business person who has invested time and money well beyond this being a personal project.

Arne

 

[dantec]

Arne
Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 599



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Alexander Arms does alot of pressure testing of factory loads and loads that are shared with them.

I will be adding a pressure barrel to my tool box this fall to do even more testing. I have to do a custom set-up since a universal receiver is big bucks and not needed for testing a single cartridge.

so where are presure informations and what is status on REAL pressure informations ??

that a question, just a question

regards

DAN TEC

Note : My home made pressure barrel is on process, and I will publish real informations soon ; I hoppe you will enjoy them ....

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Arne
Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 599



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so where are presure informations and what is status on REAL pressure informations ??

that a question, just a question

regards

DAN TEC

Note : My home made pressure barrel is on process, and I will publish real informations soon ; I hoppe you will enjoy them ....

Dan Tec,

Given the current product liability "climate" currently existing in the US, do you not think it is in AAs best interest to thoroughly test and document each and every load they produce, as well as publish at their site?

Further, I would tend to trust a US manufacturer of ammunition, that is subject to all the laws, regulations, and product liability, just a bit more than someone with a "home made pressure barrel."

Lastly, from your previous post at this site, as well as multitudes of others, complaining that AA is screwing you by not just giving you the chamber data or a reamer, any data you post should, and will, be considered suspect....

 

[dantec]

I still need the presure chamber data on 6.5 Grendel, easy question but difficult answer it seem ....

I have make the proposal to AA, several times during the two last years) to built, FREE ) a pressure barrel, I just need the chamber specs, I have never get them, the only informations I have get are not stable, different neck, different OAL ...) so nothing really stable

IF and When I start to get interest, technical interest on something ) I always try to get real informations and datas and not amazing adds, AFTER to have check these datas, recheck in fact) I, DAN TEC ) can get my own opignon on the subject :

that true or false or request more complementary tests to confirm,

My goal is NOT to make money with amazing product and fews informations I AM NOT the dummy of the year

My goal is not to stoll the works of other company too !

I have read impressive velocity on some board, and except if there is another way undiscover in thermodynamic, velocity of a bullet is mostly the result of a bullet weight and powder charge, I agree that some chamber design are more efficient than other but that stay in few % at same pressure

I have NEVER want or tend to get fight with AA or anything as disagree but I am really tired to get no real technical answers, one important point in engineering bussiness is a contract IF a company as AA want to keep the secret on the 6.5 Grendel specs for commercial WHY NOT even if that a bit strange to want in the same time get a CIP registration, that another strange point )

SO make a contract sign by the two parts is very simple, was very simple ) and by the way get real piezo pressure datas was easy with a lock on the fact that I CANOT USE, I ven doesn t want to use ) use this chamber specs for commercial use

easy and simple isn't and mostly FREE

I have never get something usable and I stil think that most velocity publish for the 6.5 Grendell are produce by hot load, over CIP / SAAMI 6 PPC max pressure wich is the parent case ) , and I doesn t think that a cartridge manufacture can produce two same round, interchangeable ) with two diffrent pressure, one low / mild for AR 15 use on hot for bolt action and I have nver see any CIP registration with two pressures levels

I agree that 6.5 Grendel is an interesting design, I had works on some close design to ..) but I think that very sad and not realistic to publish uncomplete datas with as first concern THE SAFETY .

good shooting and enjoy true facts

DAN TEC

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

I still need the presure chamber data on 6.5 Grendel, easy question but difficult answer it seem ....

You were offered a license and you refused to pay for one.

I have make the proposal to AA, several times during the two last years) to built, FREE ) a pressure barrel, I just need the chamber specs, I have never get them, the only informations I have get are not stable, different neck, different OAL ...) so nothing really stable.

You were offered a license and you refused to pay for one.

IF and When I start to get interest, technical interest on something ) I always try to get real informations and datas and not amazing adds, AFTER to have check these datas, recheck in fact) I, DAN TEC ) can get my own opignon on the subject:

that true or false or request more complementary tests to confirm.

Just because you are "interested," does not mean that AA is obligated to give you data. You were offered a license and you refused to pay for one.

I have read impressive velocity on some board, and except if there is another way undiscover in thermodynamic, velocity of a bullet is mostly the result of a bullet weight and powder charge, I agree that some chamber design are more efficient than other but that stay in few % at same pressure

I have NEVER want or tend to get fight with AA or anything as disagree but I am really tired to get no real technical answers, one important point in engineering bussiness is a contract IF a company as AA want to keep the secret on the 6.5 Grendel specs for commercial WHY NOT even if that a bit strange to want in the same time get a CIP registration, that another strange point ).

Again, just because you are "really tired to get no real technical answers" does not mean you are entitled to, or AA is obligated to give you any data. You were offered a license and you refused to pay for one.

SO make a contract sign by the two parts is very simple, was very simple ) and by the way get real piezo pressure datas was easy with a lock on the fact that I CANOT USE, I ven doesn t want to use ) use this chamber specs for commercial use

easy and simple isn't and mostly FREE.

You were offered a license and you refused to pay for one. Even if you have no intentions of using the data/specs for commercial purposes, why not just pay for the license if you want it so badly?

I have never get something usable and I stil think that most velocity publish for the 6.5 Grendell are produce by hot load, over CIP / SAAMI 6 PPC max pressure wich is the parent case ) , and I doesn t think that a cartridge manufacture can produce two same round, interchangeable ) with two diffrent pressure, one low / mild for AR 15 use on hot for bolt action and I have nver see any CIP registration with two pressures levels.

Here, again, you are making accusations, yet you have NO PROOF. Obviously, AA will not load for, and/or CIP the cartridge with "hot loads." The factory loads they are producing, and the reload data they are publishing, is based on the usage in the AR15 platform. If those reloading for bolt guns choose to load to greater pressure, then so be it.

Again, if AA was producing "hot loads" and somebody got hurt by one, here in the US they could end up out-of-business. It is in their own interest to load the cartridge to safe pressures for ALL platforms.

I agree that 6.5 Grendel is an interesting design, I had works on some close design to ..) but I think that very sad and not realistic to publish uncomplete datas with as first concern THE SAFETY .

good shooting and enjoy true facts

As an ammunition manufacturer, do you not think that AAs first OBLIGATION is to safety? Just because they have not published the pressure data, does not mean that it is unsafe.

You are already accusing AA of producing hot loads, yet you have NO DATA to back that up. I will say again, anything you would publish now would be considered completely uncredible.

You are beginning to sound like a big cry-baby because you are not getting your way. Well, this is not Burger King, it is not your way right away.

Either pay the license fee to AA, get the data you want, and move forward. Or don't pay, and STFU. Whatever you choose, please just stop the whining...

 

[457ciSBC]

WTR, I wholeheartly agree with you. I can't understand why he continues to complain and bash AA on public forums. Ideally, any issues should have been addressed personally with AA, not in a public forum such as this. That in itself would be enough for me not do business with this person. I bet if he would use the phone once in awhile and not come across as so arrogant that he would find out that he could actually now obtain a Grendel reamer.

Mike

 

[dantec]

Forum is a nice to explain so WHY miss this interesting way

I find more than very strange that the fact to get TRUE technicals informations was so a great problem

as licence quotation you Mister ??? probably make mistake I have just get a mail to know how many rifles I plan to sale, that not the same AT ALL

to be CLEAR or TRY to be CLEAR

BEFORE to try or want to sale something even the best to magic secret of the new century I TEST BEFORE and to plan to make serious test I NEED pressure informations

AA was never able to share ANY pressure data with velocity records SO I have make the proposal to built for FREE a pressure barrel and by the way get TRUE presure datas, real pressure datas )

for your information Mister ??? the main difference between a garage made wilcat and a true factory cartridge are

presure datas, better is piezo datas )
matching specs following CIP, SAAMI, NATO or STANAG

NOTHING MORE NOTHING LESS

that simple and not very difficult to understand, I am not the HAPPY CUSTOMER with a new magic toy able to ??? or design to ???I am a serious, I think ) cartridge designer ansd I am NOT the DUMMY of the year to purchase a licence, at least if I agree the price ) to get a chamber drawing and discover that the gift box is empty ?????????????????????

really sorry but I have enought knowledge to escape to this sort of bussiness

good shooting and enjoy ONLY true and real datas

DAN TEC

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

You are right about one thing, this is simple and not very difficult to understand. You are just refusing to accept what you are being told.

It seems that Arne was very clear addressing your complaints earlier in the thread, I will copy here for your benefit:

As far as releasing the reamer specs, there are multiple reamer versions for various platforms and applications. This is no different then a standard .223 Rem chamber and other designs such as the Wylde chamber or the 5.56 NATO chamber. I hate to think how many versions of the 6 PPC are out there and I am sure people have quite a few versions of the 6 BR as well.

When the cartridge is CIP'd, a standard chamber specification will be in the public domain and people will then start tweaking the clearances and throats for their purposes. I have my own clearances as does Speedy Gonzalez.

I realize that to almost all of you, shooting is a hobby and some of you share the chambers you develop and some of you dont. I am sure you can appreciate that this is a business for people like Bill Alexander and myself as well as many other people who come to this forum. As such, I have no plans to release the detailed dimensions of the match chamber I use nor will authorize the reamer maker to sell the reamer to the public. Not being evasive, just being a business person who has invested time and money well beyond this being a personal project.

Arne

Yet, you keep complaining that you are not getting what you want. AA then offers you a license, and you refuse to pay.

Based on what you stated earlier in this thread, I am amazed AA even offered you a license in the first place. You clearly state that you will "publish a clone of the chamber drawing", lets review:

I will reverse engineering and a full study of the reamer/chamber/case on a CAD system and will publish a clone of the reamer chamber drawing witch will be 101% compatible with the 6.5 Grendell

DAN TAC

It sounds to me, from your post above, like you might not just have the most honorable of intentions concerning this data. No wonder AA is not in a hurry to provide you with this information...

 

[dantec]

Dear Mister

before to write on the board that I refuse to pay something, can please check what you say

I HAVE NEVER REFUSE TOPAY SOMETHING
I HAVE EVEN NEVER GET THE PRICE OF A LICENCE
I HAVE NEVER A CONTRACT PROPOSAL
I HAVE JUST MAKE THE PROPOSAL, several times by mails, by phone, during meeting with Mister Alexander ) TO BUILT A PRESSURE BARREL FOR FREE AND RUN PRESSURE TEST

BECAUSE :

AA and Mister Arnes have never be able to give serious pressure data wich is VERY STRANGE for a commercial caliber, design a wildcat in a garage as hobby can be done by most shooters but try to explain me that a company who sale and run commercial ammo and plan to bring a major place on the ammo market is not able to publish or even share data pressures link with velocity records is FAR MORE STRANGE

I DOESN T KNOW HOW ARE COMMERCIAL RULE IN TX BUT THAT VERY STRANGE TO READ THAT I MUST PAY TO OFFER SOMETHING FREE TO HELP SOMEONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my point of view on the Grendel is :

You make a bit too much noise on you, you seeem link very close to AA ) refused to publish any pressure data .

I am tired to fight with some unknow anonymous people on 6.5 Grendel who want to be the expert of the product but who are able to give ANY serious informations !!!

I have start to make all tests and trials on your WONDERFULL product and will publish them I am sure that will be VERY INTERESTING TO READ

AND LAST POINT

the results of my pressure trials WILL BE FREE .

good shooting

DAN TEC

 

[TX65]

Walker Texas Ranger has no financial connection to Alexander Arms or Competition Shooting Sports. He is an owner of multiple Grendels,,, nothing more,,, nothing less.

Originally Posted by dantac
I will reverse engineering and a full study of the reamer/chamber/case on a CAD system and will publish a clone of the reamer chamber drawing witch will be 101% compatible with the 6.5 Grendell


Dantac,

Your statement makes clear your intentions and has been forwarded to the CEO of Alexander Arms and Bill Alexander.

As far as your comparison to the 6PPC and related comments about pressure. Refer to Hodgdon's reloading data for the 6.5 BR and 6 BR. Taking identical weight projectiles, the 6.5 BR will operate at a lower pressure while delivering the same velocity or will deliver a higher velocity at equal pressure according to Hodgdon. Why? The 6.5mm having a larger bore diameter gives more gas expansion area lowering the peak pressure.

What is the pressure of factory Alexander Arms ammo in an Alexander Arms rifle? All factory ammo is held to under 50,000 PSI and the load data is published on Alexander Arms website. These pressure levels are verified and re-verified as new lots of components come in. What are Bill Alexander's qualifications?... A Masters Degree in Engineering plus years of experience working on projects for the defense world.

As I said before, the AR15 platform is subject to bolt thrust limitations due to the locking lug design and area. Since the AR15 is the launch platform for the 6.5 Grendel, all factory ammunication is being held to pressures that keep bolt thrust within the design limits of the AR15.

I have load data from the enginners at Lapua along with pressure levels they obtained, but will not release it because it was developed with the goal of maximum pressure that while fine for a good quality bolt action, would exceed the bolt thrust limitations of the AR15 rifle.

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

Dan Tac,

Arne is correct, I am not financially affiliated with AA or Competition Shooting Sports. I have been simply shooting the Grendel for several years now, and am a firm believer in the cartridge.

My issue here is directly with you. I am "making noise" as I am simply tired of listening to you bitch and moan. I am tired of you spouting conjecture, which you cannot back up. I am disgusted and appalled that you would state that you "will publish a clone of the reamer drawing."

You keep stating AA is not able to publish or share pressure data. Not able, and not willing, are two different things. Not willing to share data with someone who has publically stated their intentions to "publish a clone of the reamer drawing," well that seems 100% understandable.

You state "I am tired to fight with some unknow anonymous people on 6.5 Grendel who want to be the expert of the product but who are able to give ANY serious informations."

Yet, WHO ARE YOU? You don't own a Grendel, you have never fired a Grendel, you have never tested a Grendel, you have never even seen a Grendel, so you are completely unqualified to make comments and incinuations like you have in this thread. YOU ARE NOBODY in the world of the Grendel.

You state "I DOESN T KNOW HOW ARE COMMERCIAL RULE IN TX BUT THAT VERY STRANGE TO READ THAT I MUST PAY TO OFFER SOMETHING FREE TO HELP SOMEONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Don't you get it???? AA DOES NOT WANT, NOR NEED, YOUR HELP!!!!!!!!!!!! They are producing thousands of Grendels per year, and have done it safely and successfully without DAN TAC to this point. Almost amazing isn't it?

Finally, you are now stating that you want to "help." Well, this seems just a bit hollow when just two pages earlier you threatened to "publish a clone of the reamer drawing." I don't see that as being much "help" to AA.

I have now wasted enough time with you, and you are simply not worth wasting any more time and bandwidth over. You have exposed your true colors and intentions, and the board members can make their own judgement on who you really are.

I will share a bit of REAL WORLD data from my last outing with my Grendel BR rifle:

200 yards, 15 MPH winds, Hornady 95 VMax, Benchmark, CCI 450, 5 shot group of .3405, subtract out the .264 and you get an actual group of .08....



Here is said rifle:



Good shooting!!!

WTR

 

[SF340Driver]

Dan Tac,
.........I am simply tired of listening to you bitch and moan....

Exactly! All of you! This tread is becoming of no use to anyone on this board. Start using PM's or just have a conference call and bitch it out.

 

[dantec]

dear all new members

You seem to have very interesting technical data to share on this board

If I can refresh the original subject that quite simple :

6.5 Grendel reamer specs and 6.5 Grendel presure level, nothing less nothing more no need to loose temper and insult me, that just a technical problem .

that amazing how want to get some informations can bother some anonymous people and why they can became so upset

just an of technical question

do you if I am not french I will get more serious answer ?? or just because I am french citizen that more easy to insult me rather to share informations ?

but in any case that an interesting point of view of the 6.5 Grendel world and I really don't think that spoil a forum with insults will be best way to promote a new product .

with all my bests

DAN TEC

 

[Forum Boss]

OK Guys,

I've never had to do this before, but this thread is going nowhere and descending into personal name calling which is not acceptable on this board.

I'll chalk this up to a mutual technical/business misunderstanding and leave it at that.

The AA guys want to retain a proprietary product. We understand their reasoning. They want to keep tight control of the "6.5 Grendel" so it doesn't end up with a dozen variants like the 6 PPC. There is some logic in that.

DanTec is a very knowledgeable smith. He was the guy who developed the "California Legal" alternative to the 50BMG. He has been a helpful contributer since the very early days of this board. We don't need people making comments about national origins.

This site serves an international audience. We welcome,and benefit from) shooters from every nation on earth.

Anyway, I'm locking this thread. I understand the positions of both sides on the issue, and it certainly looks like DanTec as well as Arne and Alexander are all trying to act in good faith.

But I think the technical matters involved are best handled through private negotiations at this point.