6.5 Creedmoor - Berger Bullet Selection

[taylorw]

I believe the 130 gr Berger OTM is the perfect bullet for the Creedmoor. It will shoot the 140 class bullets well but I believe it is a little under powered to take full advantage of the 140's
Scott

This is solid advice.. after testing several different bullets, I feel it’s the best match for this particular cartridge also.
If your using the rifle for hunting or 100-500yd matches, it’s hard to beat the 130VLD or hybrid.
I have personally had better luck with the 130VLD-H (just touching the lands) when narrowing down between the two but you may find that the hybrid best suits your needs if your running long strings during matches.
I wouldn’t get too wrapped up with BC numbers, unless your shooting past 700yds.

I won’t publish the load but running my 6.5 creed (hunting rifle) at 2980fps ES-14, with 26” barrel. (450’s, lapua brass, 130VLD, H4350).
If you can get your hands on RL16 also, I would test both powders and compare the results. For whatever reason, H4350 always wants to shoot best at the top node, just before pressure or even with some bolt lift, in my setups. RL16 seems to shoot just as well at the node or two below the top but your results may be different.

Hard to find right now but if decide to go this route and can’t find the 130 hybrids, I still have a box of 500 that’s sitting on my shelf.

 

[JB10]

When i got my first 6.5 creedmoor i was using 140 vld hunting bergers. Berger at the time did not have all the selection in 6.5 that they have now and it was the better bc. Found a good load with h4350 and have just stuck with this combo. I bought a lighter rifle in 6.5 creedmoor that i shoot more often. It did not care much for the bergers. I found a load with 140 eldm and r16 powder. Was a cheeper bullet at that time and shoots well in that rifle. Components are hard to come by right now. I would just see what you can find and go from there

 

[Kracken McGraw]

There’s a great article here - https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020...GUiwwJIflcPZjCldX1VLRezZrXd1aU1InQZfA8kD-_eMc

Long jumps are great because they are a good combination of accuracy and low maintenance. If you are trying to eek every last bit of accuracy or speed then probably this isn’t optional.

That’s a good article on favorable jump. Just as a reference I’m shooting the Hornady140bthp in my Creedmoor and with the touch point on it compared to Hornady’s book bullet COL that would be a .045 jump. Maybe them guys at Hornady know their stuff. I will recommend to this new loader to go with the book COL measure, then he can invest in more tools as time goes on.

 

[10XSHOOTER]

Try some Berger 130's. the increased velocity will overcome the BC difference.
The 130 weight is much better for a 6.5 Creed.

 

[james]

Thanks for all the great information!

 

[Toptom]

In my 6.5 savage I use for shoots I am using the 140 Berger vld hunters with h-4350. Only reason im using the hunting vld is that’s what guy who sold me the gun gave me when I bought it and I just continued using them after I put new barrel on. Shoots great groups if i am right with out looking I believe im 5 or 10 thousand off the lands.

 

[Hondo64d]

Try some Berger 130's. the increased velocity will overcome the BC difference.
The 130 weight is much better for a 6.5 Creed.

To a point…. Eventually the 140s will take over, but it’s a good way out there before it happens. I’ve pretty much settled on 123gr to 130gr bullets too. Here’s 5 shots at 900 from one of my 6.5 Creedmoors. 123gr Scenars at 2940fps.

John

 

[whatsupdoc]

Ok so for 0-600 yards anything will do in a 6.5 creed.

For example:
140 Berger @ 2785 FPS at 600 yards requires 3.5 mrad's elevation.
120 Lapua @ 3010 FPS at 600 yards requires 3.1 mrad's elevation.

Both these loads shoot outstanding in my rifle, the bullets BC matters but so does velocity.

Dont overthink it pick something that's available and use it to the best of your ability.

 

[muleystalker]

Ok so for 0-600 yards anything will do in a 6.5 creed.

For example:
140 Berger @ 2785 FPS at 600 yards requires 3.5 mrad's elevation.
120 Lapua @ 3010 FPS at 600 yards requires 3.1 mrad's elevation.

Both these loads shoot outstanding in my rifle, the bullets BC matters but so does velocity.

Dont overthink it pick something that's available and use it to the best of your ability.

You guys are thinking about it all wrong. The 120 really doesn't over take the 140. When shooting distance the drop doesn't matter as much as the wind drift. As long as you know the distance you can dial, the wind is the only thing that's not a constant in this equation, its the only thing we can't control 100% and that's what hurts our end results. If you look at all the long Range comp disciplines be it F-Class, BR,PRS or even ELR its always the wind that separates the winners from the losers not the bullet drop. Bottom line in long range less wind drift Trumps less drop

140 Berger @ 2785FPS @ 600 yards requires 1mil (22.26") of wind on a 10mph wind.
120Lapua @3010FPS @ 600 yards Requires 1.21mil (26.22") of wind on a 10mph wind

In your above example you have the 120gr Lapua beating out the 140 by 0.4mils (7.36") in less drop. But the 120gr Lapua is giving up 4" in wind drift to the 140 gr Berger at 600yds.

At 1000yds the 120 Lapua is giving up 15.88" of wind and and is only gaining 8.88" in less drop to the 140 Berger.

@1000yards 10mph wind;
140Berger 70.15" of wind
120Lapua 86.03" of wind

@1000yards Drop
140Berger 307.00"
120Lapua. 298.12"

Bottom line at the end of the day it's the wind that wins or looses matches most of the time. Now is that to say its just the better bullet that wins it, no not necessarily, you have to also know how to read wind but in most comps the people who are the best wind readers are shooting bullets that shoot the best in the wind and are less concerned with the drop because they know the wind is the one constant in this sport we can't control and is always changing.
On another point you have to remember this is on paper, in real life situations it seems that heavier bullets do buck wind better that lighter weight bullets with the same B.C. or better to a point. That has been my experience and others I have talked to.

This isn't directed at you whatsupdoc, I'm just using your example since you posted numbers.

On a side note I have shot a bunch of 130gr Norma Gold Target out of my Creedmoor and they shot great out to 1000yds. Would I choose them over the 140 Berger hybrid...no not at 600yrds and not at 1000yrds. I got a good deal on them when I first built my Creedmoor. do I still shoot them.. yes I have bout 1000 left and use them for practice and ringing steel. Will they work for what your doing yes I'm sure they would I just wanted to point out that they really don't beat out 140 Bergers or any other 140 with a good BC...at least not where it really counts.
If I was paying for Berger 140 and Berger 130 I would spend my money on the 140's, If I was getting a different brand 130 that was a good bullet at a better price would I shoot them maybe, but if I was serious about the comp I was doing I would defiantly go with the 140 Berger even if it cost a bit more.

Just a side note the 130gr Norma's where the same BC 0.583 as the 140gr Hornandy HPBT. I was able to shoot them in the same rifle without having to change my dope or POA with my two given loads.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

You guys are thinking about it all wrong. The 120 really doesn't over take the 140. When shooting distance the drop doesn't matter as much as the wind drift. As long as you know the distance you can dial, the wind is the only thing that's not a constant in this equation, its the only thing we can't control 100% and that's what hurts our end results. If you look at all the long Range comp disciplines be it F-Class, BR,PRS or even ELR its always the wind that separates the winners from the losers not the bullet drop. Bottom line in long range less wind drift Trumps less drop

140 Berger @ 2785FPS @ 600 yards requires 1mil (22.26") of wind on a 10mph wind.
120Lapua @3010FPS @ 600 yards Requires 1.21mil (26.22") of wind on a 10mph wind

In your above example you have the 120gr Lapua beating out the 140 by 0.4mils (7.36") in less drop. But the 120gr Lapua is giving up 4" in wind drift to the 140 gr Berger at 600yds.

At 1000yds the 120 Lapua is giving up 15.88" of wind and and is only gaining 8.88" in less drop to the 140 Berger.

@1000yards 10mph wind;
140Berger 70.15" of wind
120Lapua 86.03" of wind

@1000yards Drop
140Berger 307.00"
120Lapua. 298.12"

Bottom line at the end of the day it's the wind that wins or looses matches most of the time. Now is that to say its just the better bullet that wins it, no not necessarily, you have to also know how to read wind but in most comps the people who are the best wind readers are shooting bullets that shoot the best in the wind and are less concerned with the drop because they know the wind is the one constant in this sport we can't control and is always changing.
On another point you have to remember this is on paper, in real life situations it seems that heavier bullets do buck wind better that lighter weight bullets with the same B.C. or better to a point. That has been my experience and others I have talked to.

This isn't directed at you whatsupdoc, I'm just using your example since you posted numbers.

On a side note I have shot a bunch of 130gr Norma Gold Target out of my Creedmoor and they shot great out to 1000yds. Would I choose them over the 140 Berger hybrid...no not at 600yrds and not at 1000yrds. I got a good deal on them when I first built my Creedmoor. do I still shoot them.. yes I have bout 1000 left and use them for practice and ringing steel. Will they work for what your doing yes I'm sure they would I just wanted to point out that they really don't beat out 140 Bergers or any other 140 with a good BC...at least not where it really counts.
If I was paying for Berger 140 and Berger 130 I would spend my money on the 140's, If I was getting a different brand 130 that was a good bullet at a better price would I shoot them maybe, but if I was serious about the comp I was doing I would defiantly go with the 140 Berger even if it cost a bit more.

Just a side note the 130gr Norma's where the same BC 0.583 as the 140gr Hornandy HPBT. I was able to shoot them in the same rifle without having to change my dope or POA with my two given loads.

This makes a lot of sense!
For another hypothesis, Nosler makes the long range accubond in 142 and 129 for the.264. If you were using these for long range deer hunting, would you choose the lighter weight for the extra speed or stay with the 142’s for less wind drift?

 

[FeMan]

I agree with Muleystalker. I built a 6.5CM with a 30-inch barrel and set it up for the 153.5s. They weren't consistent enough but the 156 EOLs were. It shoots under 1/4 moa and runs the EOLs comfortably at 2775 fps. The G7 is 0.346. Its LR performance is very close to my 284s but with 1/2 the recoil.

 

[james]

Has anyone tried the Sierra 130 grain MK tipped bullet in the 6.5? Sierra's load manual lists Varget as one of the recommended powders and I have some of that. I use Sierra's 95 grain tipped MK in my Savage 6BR LRPV in varmint matches and it does extremely well.

 

[muleystalker]

This makes a lot of sense!
For another hypothesis, Nosler makes the long range accubond in 142 and 129 for the.264. If you were using these for long range deer hunting, would you choose the lighter weight for the extra speed or stay with the 142’s for less wind drift?

For Long range deer hunting out of those 2 bullets I would use the 142 all the way. I have never used those bullets but I always go the heavier High BC bullet for LR hunting, its not just hitting the deer but the heavy will almost always hit with more energy at longer distances. I aways take the heavy and that way I practice with it and know what it will do far or near. Also keep in mind what your LR hunting is may be way different than what I consider LR hunting, I am born and raised on the west coast and most of my hunting is out west where a 500 yard shot at a deer is an everyday occurrence for me and isn't considered LR. 700-1000 yards is what I consider LR hunting so the term "LR Hunting" is a little subjective but you can see at what I consider LR Hunting where what I was taking about in my previous post becomes really important since we are we are harvesting an animal not a piece of paper. Both less wind drift and more energy plays a bigger role in LR hunting.
I have no experience with the two bullets you listed and don't know how they perform at longer distance on game. One of my top choices for LR hunting are Berger Hybrids and Extreme Hunters, also their VLD Hunting bullets. They are built to expand at longer ranges. I am also doing some load work up and going to try some Badlands Bulldozer II's, they are high BC monolithic hunting bullets and look promising.

 

[muleystalker]

Has anyone tried the Sierra 130 grain MK tipped bullet in the 6.5? Sierra's load manual lists Varget as one of the recommended powders and I have some of that. I use Sierra's 95 grain tipped MK in my Savage 6BR LRPV in varmint matches and it does extremely well.

I haven't tried the tipped MK but I have tried the 6mm 90gr tipped Game King in my 6x204 and they shot real well. If I remember correctly I think the have the same or better BC ask the 95gr SMK which are great bullets.

 

[muleystalker]

I agree with Muleystalker. I built a 6.5CM with a 30-inch barrel and set it up for the 153.5s. They weren't consistent enough but the 156 EOLs were. It shoots under 1/4 moa and runs the EOLs comfortably at 2775 fps. The G7 is 0.346. Its LR performance is very close to my 284s but with 1/2 the recoil.

I'm in the process of doing the same thing for an F-Open rifle, Borden BRM action, 33" BRUX 1;7.5
Im just waiting on the stock. What was the issue with the 153.5s? My buddy is shooting the 156's and they are doing very well. Another friend is shooting the 153.5s and doing very good several State championship places with them. I have 4000 of the 153.5s so hoping I they work for me, LOL. I also have 2000 Berger 144s for backup.

 

[Sebrock]

I'm in the process of doing the same thing for an F-Open rifle, Borden BRM action, 33" BRUX 1;7.5
Im just waiting on the stock. What was the issue with the 153.5s? My buddy is shooting the 156's and they are doing very well. Another friend is shooting the 153.5s and doing very good several State championship places with them. I have 4000 of the 153.5s so hoping I they work for me, LOL. I also have 2000 Berger 144s for backup.

What powder are you guys running with the heavier projectiles? Are you throating the rifle for those bullets so you can seat them longer and have more case capacity?

 

[Kracken McGraw]

While we’re on this subject MidwayUSA is showing for next year, a .264 150gr G1.634 long range accubond bullet.

 

[FeMan]

I'm in the process of doing the same thing for an F-Open rifle, Borden BRM action, 33" BRUX 1;7.5
Im just waiting on the stock. What was the issue with the 153.5s? My buddy is shooting the 156's and they are doing very well. Another friend is shooting the 153.5s and doing very good several State championship places with them. I have 4000 of the 153.5s so hoping I they work for me, LOL. I also have 2000 Berger 144s for backup.

The only person I know that's having real luck with the 153.5's is Bruce, and he is killing it with them. I tried for 300 rounds and could not get rid of the random flyers. I put some 156s in the case, jumped them 30k and had 5 shots under 0.2 moa. That was in a LR Tactical rifle with a 7.5 twist.. Bruce is shooting a 7 twist but everything else is the same in our loads.

I chambered an f-class barrel (Brux 7.5 twist) and will try the 153.5s in that. I will quickly jump to the 156s though if they wont group.

If I find the missing secret I'll let you know. Hopefully you have better luck with them than I did.

 

[FeMan]

What powder are you guys running with the heavier projectiles? Are you throating the rifle for those bullets so you can seat them longer and have more case capacity?

I used the standard sammi reamer and am using H4350. I tried RL16 with the 153.5s and it didn't help. My initial load was 30k jump and now at 1200 rounds and some throat erosion, I moved to 60k jump. My load density is 98%.

 

[muleystalker]

Sebrock72,
My one friend is shooting the 156's in a 6.5x55AI he built, he is also going to try the 153.5s since he is running low on the 156s. My other friend is shooting a sammi Creedmore reamer and has shot the 156's with great success and then switched to the 153.5s and they are hammering. So I am unsure if I am going to throat mine out a little bit more or not, I need to take a better look at this bullet in a case. I am kind of afraid to screw with things the way my friends is shooting them with the standard reamer, LOL.